Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast. We’re your hosts, Jessica Warpula Schultz and Jeanne Kolker. Whether you’ve tried everything to feel better and something is still missing or you’ve already discovered the wisdom of the body. This podcast will encourage and support you in healing old wounds, strengthening relationships, and developing your inner potential- all by accessing the mind body connection.
Please know, while we’re excited to share and grow together. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for mental health treatment. It doesn’t replace the one-on-one relationship you have with a qualified healthcare professional and is not considered psychotherapy.
Thanks Jess. And thank you for listening. Now, let’s begin a conversation about what happens when we take an integrative approach to improving our wellbeing.
Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk. I’m your host, Jessica Warpula Schultz. Today. My guest, Amanda Bauer from Forrest coaching and studios. And I talk about running. Running is a great way to move the body and connect to something deeper with it. I often hear runners talk about feelings of freedom, lowered stress, increased clarity and creativity.
even if they’re running alone runners describe a deeper sense of connection to others. World sounds pretty amazing. What I also hear from runners is that it’s a difficult sport, injuries are common and running is something you can only do for so long before those injuries start to add up and you have to choose between the sport you love and making things worse, or just stopping altogether.
Often people keep running and that’s why I’m so glad Amanda is here today. Amanda’s going to share new ways to experience running. She’ll give tips on breathing correctly, assessing the neurological connection between breath and your running pattern, tips on listening to your body in order to increase sport longevity, and increasing your understanding of your body as something that is empowering, strong and safe.
Amanda is a certified oxygen advantage, coach breathing, running, and kettlebells expert amanda specializes in coaching, recreational runners, as well as any client looking to bring ease and comfort to their everyday lives.
She offers sessions both virtually as well as in-person through Forrest coaching and students. No forest coaching located just off the Capitol square Madison. Wisconsin happens to be one of my favorite studios in town because they believe in trauma informed fitness training. They work to create an inclusive environment for all bodies.
And you’ll never experience that no pain, no gain then is best calories in calories out. Bullshit prescribed by the diet and fitness industry. You’ll find real people with excellent training who can help you reach your health goals in a way that supports the whole person. So welcome, Amanda. Thank you so much for being here today.
Hello. Hello. Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure. Let’s get straight into it. I know that Madison is a big running community. I know running is a sport internationally, probably one of the most popular sports, I would assume because there’s easy access to it.
You just need a pair of shoes. It’s affordable. There’s a large community around it. What brought you to Rome? You’re exactly right. It is definitely one of the most popular sports. What brought me to running was, oh boy, that is a, that’s a loaded question. When I was in high school grade school, my, let me tell you a story.
So back up a little bit I heard my phone ring. I was maybe like four or five years old running around the house chasing my older sister, loved her, wanted to be her. And she answered the phone. She said, yes, I’ll love to, I’ll be there soon. And it was her friend asking her to come and play soccer with her.
They needed another person on the soccer team and I wanted to do what my sister did. So what did I do? I tagged along and. 12 years later ODP programs torn meniscus guy, there were all sorts of injuries, sprained ankles, a broken wrist. I despised soccer. It was the worst.
It was just this, team sport where everybody was pitted against other people and it was just. It was really hard emotionally to try to be there and support others. Where I felt the blame quite often, if a goal went by, I was like, oh, keeper. I stopped playing sports. I stopped working out.
I had a period of very unhealthy eating unhealthy movement practices. And then some things changed and one day I just. Decided to go on like a one minute run a one minute walk. And by the end of the month, I ran my very first 5k with my dog. Very important to me. And there’s like maybe 30 people in this race and we got second in our age group.
Okay, cool. It’s possible, but there’s just something about an entire, an entire community that is there to support you instead of look down on you for it. Getting that extra minute faster. So that me to running was really that sense that it is an internal and something that’s very internal, but externally motivated.
So if I can explain that a little bit better, you have an entire community around you, but really you’re only battling with yourself and supporting yourself inside when you’re on the run. It was my introverted extroverted personality. Yeah. Identify with that. I often have told previous people I’ve worked with, or, I’ve often told people that for me, I don’t need to hear who’s faster.
I don’t need to hear who did more burpees before I got there. I don’t, that doesn’t motivate me at all. And often for me, at least it creates a little bit of shutdown because then I get in my head about it. But if I. I’m looking and thinking about what I’ve done and how I can improve and how I work to become more efficient or better at something that’s very motivating to me and then doing that within a community.
So that internal, external, I like the way you phrase that. So maybe that’s why a lot of people enjoy running perhaps is that it meets both the external person’s needs. The timing they liked to competition. They like to see where they place. They like the community, but also for people who are more introverts, maybe it’s just a really beautiful way to connect to themselves and build a relationship with themselves.
Exactly. There are so many people. I know that hate going to gyms because they don’t like looking at yourself. If you can’t really look at yourself when you’re running, so yeah, that’s a really good point. You just got to look at all the beautiful nature. At least if you’re outside, right?
So you are a neuro biomechanical running coach. What does that mean? From forest coaching studios, that is what we do. We look at things from a brain-based perspective. So in simple terms, we take what happens to us. Our brain integrates that decides what’s happening and it gives us an output.
So from a neuro biomechanical sense, how your foot strike is approaching the ground, hitting the ground and pulling off the sides, your speed it, despite the sides. Yeah. Rate of exertion decides how fast you’re going to breathe and taking not only into account your foot strike, but what you’re seeing, how fast things are coming by you your relationship to Really like the heat that’s around you, the chill that’s around you.
So from the neuro biomechanical aspect, it’s not, it is not training from a sense of how fast are you going? And we get faster by just continuing to increase mileage and increasing your speed. But we look at four. Perfect form. And we look at how you’re interacting with the environment and how your brain is deciding on that interaction to create a greater and better output to keep you safer.
When you feel safer, you are able to perform at a higher. Agreed. And that’s something that we’re starting to hear more about. And research is starting to show that when athletes feel safe or they’re relaxed, they have optimal results versus utilizing stress to get the system to go faster, the system to improve.
I love how Forest Coaching brings that in. It was one of the first places I ever heard about that theory, which then started me on my own journey. Investigating the polyvagal theory and working with Forest Coaching. It changed even how I interacted with clients who experienced trauma as a psychotherapist, this idea that our brain is really involved in all the choices we make.
So when you approach, when you coach someone on running, how does that, what does that look like? How do you start. I’m stuck. I don’t start with gate. I start with breathing absolutely. First. The first thing that you do when you enter this world is you take a breath and that’s the last thing that you do.
So from that perspective, You breathe thousands and thousands of times a day. And when you’re running really the biggest limiting factor is can you control your breathing, controlling your breathing controls a lot about the safety mechanisms that’s in your brain. I will assess breathing patterns to make sure that breathing patterns are functional.
And after that, we’ll really assess gates after that, because the fascinating thing about gates and running is you can tell a lot about someone’s brain. Hard thing about it is that oftentimes you think, oh you’re just landing on your heels. So land on the balls of your feet instead, and pronate do this, do that.
It’s very difficult to train. Especially with how many thousands of times you take steps. So instead of telling an athlete we need to stop landing on your heels. It’s more of creating safer drills and creating a safer space. Brain and the body to actually want to land correctly. So as not to heel strike your heel striking, you’re often putting undue pressure on the knee often leads to either shin splints or it band syndrome put those in quotes reasons.
And those are really just ways for your body. Your brain to tell you something doesn’t feel safe here, not interacting with the environment. I want you to sit down if you’ve ever experienced runner runners, Naples. That’s pretty much why I don’t run is because I have this. This is why I dislike running.
When I’m not on a podcast, I use stronger words to talk about it, but I used to do a half marathon here, five case there, and then my right knee always gets all puffy and icky and I just don’t want to do it. And after you sit down, how does your knee feel? Gosh, I haven’t ran in a really long time.
I know that when I get up, it feels really stiff and sore. I don’t, what do you mean when I sit down? Just that it feels better. Runner’s knee. I get this quite often and you’ll find this a lot with recreational runners is that we’ll run. And then our knees will feel really weak and we’re like, oh, I just need to sit down and you sit down for a little bit and you stand up.
You’re fine. It’s very similar to when you’re on a boat near, maybe under you’re rocking around and you go into, I feel nauseous and you go and look at the hurricane. You go and look at the horizon, your uppy Downy, Oregon’s your balance. Oregon’s then feel like they know where they are in space, so it can create a better input into your brain, which makes you feel a little bit less wonky, a little less nauseous.
That’s just creating a change. So what is runner’s knee aside from your brain requesting a change? It doesn’t feel safe anymore in this room. So it’s going to ask you to sit down. So as a coach, I would say at what point in your run, where are you experiencing this? And if you were experiencing this super quick into your run, how was your warmup?
Do we need to create safer input mechanisms around your knees? Maybe around your feet, maybe around your hips, maybe your hips aren’t extending well enough. You’re pulling isn’t good. So we really look at these different. I guess injuries or issues or chronic issues. And instead of giving you strength drills to strengthen your glute minimus, glute medius, to prevent it band syndrome, we look at why is this occurring in the first place and is it occurring because your feet aren’t mobile.
So that’s the approach that we use. I love that. Yeah, it totally does. I know. When I worked with Annie and I met with you a couple of times as well. One of the running drills you gave me was to, run thinking about it and then run thinking about someone I love and then run a lap, thinking about my form and then run a lap, thinking about something that I love doing and to really.
Start to tell my brain, give it some of those messages of happiness and joy and safety as you’re working on this so that you decrease that threat response. Because for me, it comes back again, to those survival responses that our body naturally will do. So when, tell me about this, thinking about talking about first response.
I’ve experienced this other clients I’ve worked with have experienced this. Why do some people experience increase in anxiety, incur panic sensations while running or intense cardiovascular exercise? Or are you ready to get really nerdy? Yes. That’s where I’m asking you. Bring it up. Now, depending upon the individual, obviously there’s definitely individual considerations may not apply to everybody, but in general, if you think about where the diaphragm is and where the heart is, so the heart sits right on that diaphragm, as you inhale that diaphragm descend.
And the heart has more space. So if it has more space thinking about the blood that is in that heart, the pressure is a little bit lower, which sends signals to your brain stem to increase your respiration rate. When the diaphragm a sense comes up with your exhale, the heart gets a little bit, has less space, so it has a little bit more pressure.
So the brainstem and then says let’s decrease the respiration rate. As you are running, you need to regulate your breathing pattern in and out. If you were constantly trying to suck that air in, yes, that shallow breathing, you have that constant decreased or increased area.
For the heart. So the brainstem is then saying, keep breathing harder, keep breathing faster. We need to regulate our blood pressure. We need to regulate how much oxygen is in our system. Like we’re not getting the greatest like optimal, like functioning, which is again, threat. There’s a threat, right?
Why something changed? Homeostasis is where the body wants to stay. So in that moment, if you’re panicking, if you’re over-breathing, if you’re breathing in too much and you’re not expelling enough, you’re not exhaling your heart rates going through the roof, which obviously is not safe. So that sends signals out saying, Hey, let’s stop for a little bit.
Let’s regulate our breathing. Let’s calm down so that, Nope. No catastrophe happens. What about levels? What about CO2 levels during that? So as far as that goes to you, you have all of this oxygen that’s coming in Carbon dioxide is what we need in our system in order to. Get the oxygen into the working cells. carbon dioxide and oxygen are partners and they need to maintain a certain level in your system when you’re over oxygen.
Yeah. There’s no mechanism to get oxygen into your working cells, into your brain, into your lung cells and to your muscles, because there’s so much oxygen.
It’s like the blood gets filled with oxygen and another threat and it’s not moving into ourselves, another threat and that shallow breathing that often accompanies anyone in a survival response of S flee fight. Or anyone with anxiety often we breathe through our chest. Say we have, can you tell that someone here might have anxiety?
So you breathe through your chest a lot, or even your throat, which without that big diaphragmatic breath, you’re not getting the CO2 into yourself, which is another. The accumulation of the carbon dioxide. So if you do not have that proper buildup of carbon dioxide, if we are over oxygenating, we are not actually utilizing that oxygen and it’s not getting to our working cells
It’s it’s this unload offload kind of mechanism, you’re one of the first people to ever talk to me about carbon.
Dioxide as much as oxygen, all you ever hear in like popular vernacular is oxygen. I don’t think we’re thinking about the exhale nearly as much as we should or what even happens in between. Gosh, that’s just fascinating to me. So I know you have a drill for this, that people can try a breathing drill two and a half minutes long to help balance that offload and onload that oxygen and that CO2 distribution.
Hey, I do, especially, it’s an emergency panic attack. Drill. Try not to do this while you are running, but sit down and it’s very simple. Breathe in you breathe out. You’re gonna hold your breath on an exhale for a count of five. After that five, you’re going to resume breathing for about 10 seconds.
Normal in normal, out through the nose. After 10 seconds, you will exhale and hold your breath for another five seconds. And you’ll repeat that for about two and a half minutes. So it’s about 10 cycles. So the pattern is normal breathing for 10 seconds and exhale nose only. Okay. Yes. I could go into an entire diatribe and an entire podcast about why nasal breathing is more important than mouth breathing, but that’s next time.
Yeah. So in through your nose, out through your nose, normal breathing for about 10 seconds, exhale, creates a calming effect. Yeah. Activates the parasympathetic nervous system helps ground helps regulate that. Getting calm or just thinking. I love it. So try, that can practice. It sounds like at any time, probably easier, like you said to practice when you’re not running, but it will have the effect of starting to teach your body where diaphragm.
How to breathe correctly, how to regulate, which is wonderful for anything in life, any exactly. And let’s see, while you’re running, what you can think of is just extend your exhale. Ah, okay. And then while you’re running, extend your exhale. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for that. Let’s move to longevity of sport.
So listening to your body sustainability. We talked about at the start of this podcast, how, I think when there’s, when someone loves running, they’re going to run their entire life. I’ve never met someone who stops running. Oh yeah. This has been good. I think I’m going to move on, try something new, y’all are dedicated to this mind body experience.
So how does someone increase the longevity? So increase their ability to do it well for as long as they can. And that again is going to be so individual. But I think the important thing to note is that we do have community here, especially in Madison, which is absolutely amazing, but we always want to be at every single run.
We don’t want to have a DNF. And. It’s our community. So if we miss out on a run, we miss out on a group setting. So in my opinion, the best way to increase the longevity of your sport is to first of all, get your breathing in order second, listen to your body and really take good care to create perfect form through.
Not running on injury, right? So we’re not actually allowing ourselves to run during injury because the only thing that does during injury and pain is if we’re running through pain, we’re running through injuries, it teaches us to expect it. And so if we expect that to happen, especially with your brain, if we think of it from a neuro neurological aspect, if.
Our brains really rely on prediction. They can predict what happens if we run on a sprained ankle, we know what’s going to happen. It’s going to hurt a little bit. That’s fine. It’ll be great. And then your output is really going to be changing. Your stride so that pain doesn’t occur. And so you’re going to make up for that by instead of putting a much pressure on that right.
Ankle, because you’ve sprained that right ankle. You’re going to put a little bit more on the left. What’s going to happen. You’re going to start to create some weird things that are going to happen with that left hip. That’s going to travel all the way up to that right shoulder. And you now have gone from, instead of, yeah.
Resting and really doing a really good job of creating good input in that right ankle. You’ve now created a neck injury on your upper spine, and now you have a stiff neck and probably around its spine and running is going to be probably pretty painful. So it’s correcting those bad habits when you find them making sure that you’re not ignoring those little aches and pains.
But you’re understanding why they’re there and trying to create a safer I say for understanding around, around them and around your body, how can someone prehab, what does that look like? Can you explain the idea of pre having in order to avoid injury?
Of course. And I think most runners will understand that. Getting through your strength work. It is absolutely doing that. And it is also. Creating good distibular and balanced inputs. It is understanding that you can’t just run every single day without squatting a couple of days without working on your core and having some of your runs be slower than other runs.
And rehabbing to me is really having just a really good cross training program. There’s a reason why all of us running coaches around Madison tell people that they need to have a cross training program. Running is a beautiful, wonderful, magical thing, but it is not resistance training. You are not strengthening and creating a plasticity through a lot of your tendons and muscles and all that good stuff.
Because you do have that repetitive nature out of it. Brains love the novel. They love doing different things and creating new programs around it. So from a neurological perspective, if all you do is run, your brain is wired to make that lazier to make it easier. It creates shortcuts around it. Thanks brain.
Yeah. Thanks for being so awesome and smart and fast, but written your signature. And I don’t know about you, but my signature just looks like an X hi, that’s fine. I’ve done it so often when I was a little girl, I took painstaking like strokes. But you could see it and I practice it, made it perfect.
And now it’s just whatever. So I think that the same thing can be said about running is that if we just look at it from, oh, I just am going to go for a run and not actively practice, maybe a couple strides at a time, beginning of the run, middle of the run. End of the run. Where’s my foot landing. Am I.
Leaning forward. Where are my eyes? Are they on the horizon? And I’m breathing my regulating my breathing. So practicing drills and practicing your strength training program, honestly, pretty simple. That’s great. No, keep it simple. And yet. It’s nuanced. It’s still complex in my opinion. What about the misconception? And I hear this a lot and I guess I have a voice in my head that agrees that running will lead no matter what it leads to injury. For example, I’ve often said when people say, oh, do you run? I’m , no,
I like my knees. I think that’s one of my favorite ways to explain why I don’t run. I like my knees the way they are. So what are your thoughts on it?. I have some problems with that.
The biggest problem is. Let’s take your example. So you’re creating that story in your head. Oh, if I do this, it’s going to lead to injury it’s this idea, this output that our conscious brain puts towards something, because something in your unconscious centers doesn’t feel safe with running, and that’s fine.
You do not have to love running, but if you do love running and then it’s something that you want to do into your eighties. And there are people. That run into their eighties and run the Boston marathon every single year, which is amazing. And it does not have to lead to injury, especially if you take care to practice your form, you can think about, you’ve got athletes that squat, they love squatting. They love the Olympic squat lift and their snatches, and they set up.
Perfectly every single time they take care to practice their other lifts that will assist with the safety of their lift, because what is that heavy lifting? But every time form is key. If your form is right, if your form is off for a one rep max squat, you will likely be slightly hurt some place. If we, as runners looked at running the same way that we look at our strength training, I think we would be far better.
Instead of just going, ah, it’s fine. I can heel strike or just be lazy and running during this sprint. I just need to get through it. Or you are beat you’re exhausted and you just, that probably getting through that last one K last half, half a mile, you are maybe running on your runner’s knee.
Walk it sit down, do a drill. Don’t force it.
Can you talk a little bit more about working on skills and and how skills can increase safety? Not only biomechanically, but also just emotionally what other thing, what are other things people can do on your own without a coach, things that you can do are really good ankle mobility drills, specifically love to say this lunges. So the angle that you have between the top of your foot and your.
How can you make that feel really safe your toes as well? There are pulling drills that I would recommend. I can talk a million years, but along this stuff, but oftentimes if you can think about running in a little kitty pool, if you’re just running in place, if you are kicking the water in a way that the water actually leaves the pool behind.
You are pushing down and backwards and you’re not running very efficiently. You’re not pulling the ground with you to run forward. So instead you can think about pulling your heel to your butt, do your took us, if you will. Lovely lady that I work with and is teaches me and it hilarious anyways.
So if the water drops vertically down, as you’re pulling in, you’re leaning forward, that’s a great trail. Get into a kiddie pool and retrain your gate so that you’re pulling through your hamstring, pulling through your glutes instead of kicking back, and then you have to have a harder dry and your drive forward.
You’re pulling up with your knees and your core. If you’re pulling up with your knees in your quads, your legs are going to start burning way faster and your hamstrings are meant for endurance as are your calf. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me more about the toes. What is a drill to help get to know your toes? Oh I liked scrunching and I also liked picking up pens and pencils with your toes.
And there’s also the beauty of it. Skin stim. Touch is a good. Making sure that adding sensory to your toes, like touching your toes, telling your brain here, my toes. Hello toes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Not just with your hands, but also with maybe a paintbrush or a tissue or poke at it and you want to get all nerdy.
It has a lot to do with the structures in your brain, too. The sensory cortex that tells you where things are, which sits just behind where you can move things. So you have to touch things before you can actually move them or know how to move them. So with feet specifically, it does have a lot of touch.
And how important are your toes when you’re running? Like how much do they matter? Oh, Yes, the answer is yes. Yes. They matter a lot. Imagine having your big, your great toe. Imagine breaking it and attempting to walk. And if you don’t have. A good understanding of where your toes are.
Cause they, they push off through the ground through that great toe, your little toe, whatever. It’s a little toe and I’ve run on toes where I didn’t realize that they were even broken, probably should have, but the same thing is very true. Every other structure in your body, right? If you have a broken finger, running’s going to not be terribly difficult, but you’re still going to come and probably feel that.
I remember when I was in October, I had my teeth, I had my wisdom teeth pulled and attempting to run three weeks. After that, I had a massive headache. It was awful. You’re relearning your body. You’re relearning what can move and what doesn’t move. So the importance of your feet and your toes it’s your relationship with how fast you’re going?
Your relationship with how much force you’re putting in through the ground is you’re pulling off and landing and the unconscious input that your feet and your toes give to your brain while you’re running. There’s huge millions and million of drills, or a really cool way to maybe start working on something different, wake your brain up around, running and do something different.
I hear you talk about stride and I can imagine how that would start to feel a little overwhelming because of all the different nuances. But I could handle scrunching my toes around things every day. I could handle trying to pick up pencils and get to know those toes and see how it changes on my own.
Yeah. And are there other things you choose, just make sure that you can actually wiggle your toes in your shoes. So I want to tie those so tight. Okay. So shoes, toe drills. This conversation has been really interesting to me, Amanda, thank you for being here. And as we wrap up, are there any other habits that someone could work on your eyes where you are looking while you’re running while you’re doing things is so important, oftentimes.
Runners tend to look down at their feet instead of out at the horizon and your body wants to go where it looks. If you’re looking to the left, oftentimes you turned to the left. So giving yourself some good eye droves like what’s an hydro look far away often, especially if you’re on your computer.
Yeah. Yeah. I we’re only looking in one place all day long. And then I drove could be just to look out. 20 feet away for 20 seconds and hold that because we have so many different muscles in our eyes that we’re only using maybe a couple of them to look at these screens all day there’s a great beat. One that I often find helps when people have tight hips. So you stick your thumb about an arm’s distance away from you. You look directly at your thumb, keep your head where it is, and then draw that then down and to the side, keeping your eyes on it.
Hold your gaze there. Close your eyes. Bring it back to the Midland. And repeat it a couple of times on each side,
that particular drill, keeping your heads, get still training those muscles in your eyes. First of all, to see, without moving the head to perceive what’s down in that site, while you’re running, that’s pretty important to see your sides, your hips as well, why it affects your hips. Again, I could go into. The neurological science-y kind of connections back there.
But for some reason I find that works very well for a lot of my runners that have issues with their hips or tight knees or it band issues. Okay. I like that. And my instinct is thinking about how you’re right, when the head moves, the body moves. And if you’re looking down, you’ve got that slight curve of the back.
Maybe, the system, isn’t quite sure what’s going on. Things tighten up to protect and practicing. Allowing your brain to know you can look down and I’ll keeping the head up. Just probably increases safety, right? You want to let your body know you’re safe as often as possible and scanning the environment while maintaining that relaxed posture sounds like it would be really helpful.
Exactly. Very cool. You are a wealth of knowledge, Amanda. I really appreciate it. And I think people will get a lot from this information. Thank you. Very welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. To wrap up, take what you learn out into your world, listening to your body, listen to your brain while you’re training, practice, those breathing drills.
Practice those tow drills. And remember, try not to run on injury, allow your body to heal so that it doesn’t learn how to run on an injury. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks again. Thanks for F orest Coaching for sharing you with us today. I really thank you so much.
Thank you again for joining us on Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-centered mental health podcast. We hope today’s episode was empowering and supported you in strengthening your mind-body connection We’re your hosts Jeanne and Jess. Please join us again as we continue to explore integrative approaches to wellbeing. Until then, take care.
Today’s episode is “The Coming In of Coming Out” and my guest is Alexander Einsman, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. Alexander, pronouns he/him/his, is a psychotherapist practicing in Madison, Wisconsin at Harmonia Madison center for psychotherapy.
In addition to treating anxiety and depression in adults, teens, and couples, he specializes in psychodynamic therapy, focused around LGBTQIA identity, the Queer shame-pride continuum, and trauma. Alex relies on several treatment modalities in his practice, including ego state or parts therapy, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing therapy, also known as EMDR and clinical hypnosis. He also mentors and offers his clients the same mind-body connection he practices, derived from yoga, meditation, and hypnosis.
Alex graduated with a BA from the University of Wisconsin Madison and he received his MS in Marriage and Family Therapy from Edgewood College in Madison, Wisconsin, where he researched protective factors for queer youth development.
He completed his clinical internship at Briarpatch Youth Services, a Dane county nonprofit offering teen and family counseling and a youth shelter for at-risk youth. He has published columns and articles on therapy and psychology in Our Lives Magazine and the Wisconsin State Journal.
Alex, I am so happy you are here.
We have been therapy friends for quite a while. We met at Briarpatch Youth Services when you were doing your clinical internship and I was working in street outreach as an AmeriCorps member. We were driving around to schools and also providing therapy at the center itself. I remember it being a really meaningful time for me, learning from you and practicing our work together.
Today, we’re here to talk about The Coming In of Coming Out. What does that mean?
It’s language that came up for me as we were talking about this episode and thinking about the process of pride and shame for members of the LGBTQIA+ community or the Queer community as we’ll refer to moving forward.
We think of coming out as language that’s pretty common which, in a way, represents a step away from shame to pride. Oftentimes coming out is focused on seeking that external acceptance or validation, which is so important when we have any aspect of identity that we feel could be shameful or bad.
In parallel, for many people who identify as part of this community, there’s a process of coming inward. Even when we come out, there’s still this process of internally connecting. Most people who have had an aspect of their identity that they’ve hidden, or felt shame about, have experienced a disconnection within the self.
The coming in of coming out refers to how we can come inward and move toward ourselves even if we’re not getting the type of external acceptance that we want. We create a coming toward the self, ultimately showing up as a whole person.
Let’s talk more about the continuum between pride and shame.
First, Alex, what does pride mean to you?
Pride to me has really expanded in my own experience and definition and has changed throughout my development as a as a young person, a young gay man in this world.
I first experienced and thought of pride as the opportunity to be out in this world and to show who I am or who we are without any apology. Basically, to show up in a way that we can be seen and accepted. The way that’s expanded for me, and I think for many people, is that I realized that the coming inward of pride was something that was really necessary. I love the celebration and the embracement, but over time I’ve thought about pride more as how can I show up for myself and for others in the community?
Both a connection outward and inward.
It reminds me of some ways of Dr. Kristin Neff’s work in self-compassion. She talks about how we need tender self-compassion as well as fierce self-compassion.
There’s this balance of energies to create wholeness where there’s the tender self-compassion of accepting ourselves to alleviate suffering and working on that inner healing. The coming in. And there’s also the fierce self-compassion of taking action to alleviate suffering; protecting yourself, drawing boundaries, providing for yourself, saying yes to your own needs, connecting with your community, and learning how to grow and change within the world.
What you’re describing is this delicate balance. If we have too much of one and not enough of the other, that can shape whether we’re there for our whole self or feeling as though our full self is being nurtured.
That is such a great perspective and I love that idea of the balance between being fierce, which is often necessary, and tender.
Fierce self-compassionate has such a great ring to it. It reminds me of the original nation of pride. If we look back at Stonewall, the idea to fiercely push back against police brutality to members of the Queer community was just necessary. And also, that inward process of providing gentler self-compassion inside. That’s a lovely, expansive way of looking at it.
Alex, you said pride is ideally the absence of shame. What did you mean by that?
I really see and conceptualize pride as the antithesis to shame. When we’re stuck in shame it can be really hard to feel prideful or engage in pride. I also want to acknowledge that there is a continuum between pride and shame that offers a sense of freedom. Things don’t have to be either/or. They can be both. Pride on that continuum connects the lightness to the darkness or the connection to the disconnection. It can be helpful to think about those terms together. That allows us to really look at our own experience of shame, whether it’s consciously or unconsciously, and find ways to explore pride in a personal way, collectively and individually.
Shame is the belief that something is wrong with who we are. A sense of unworthiness. In your clinical opinion, how does shame manifest itself within the context of queer identities?
Shame is really a universal experience. It’s one of our ways of coping.
When I think about shame within the context of queer identity, I think a lot about the internal and external rejection of self and how we often think about shame as something that is learned in both overt and covert messages throughout our development.
When we think about queer identity, there can be overt attacks with language and even mixed into our language. For example, the use of gay when referring to something bad, wrong, or different. These attacks are pretty ingrained into our language.
Shame can also be manifested silently. Something that’s not talked about at all. We get these messages that like, Ooh, there is, there is something bad about that.
Often, when I’m describing shame to clients, it’s about the dichotomy between guilt and shame, something that comes from Brene Brown’s work. Guilt being, I did something that I feel badly about versus shame being, I am bad as a person. There’s something wrong with me. Possibly even something that can’t be fixed.
Shame is the internalization of a lot of these negative messages and can often come as an explanation too. As a young human in this world, if I’m not cared for and loved the way I ideally should be, or worse, if I experience abuse or trauma, shame can be the explanation. There must be something wrong with me that caused this.
I think that’s why within the queer community it can be so challenging to navigate from there is something wrong with me to a place of pride or even fierce pride or fierce compassion. This is me and I welcome this.
It reminds me of Janina Fisher’s book, Healing the Fragmented Selves of Trauma Survivors. She talks about how when we experience trauma, and I think about chronic shame as a very significant trauma, the messages we get, even just from society, are misrecognition, not being seen clearly, not being loved as we are. They can start are early as infancy and our brains aren’t fully formed until we’re 24.
Often when we experience trauma, we’re not in the front of our brain, our prefrontal cortex. Because of that, we don’t have concrete memories to later go back to later to understand what happened. We’re left with these body memories or emotions. Sometimes what’s left are feelings of shame or confusion or low self-worth. That becomes the narrative, simply because our brain was offline, and our hippocampus didn’t make a memory. We can’t pinpoint that the person was wrong to do that. It wasn’t about me. We just have residual emotion, which sometimes becomes a shame narrative.
We then believe the narrative. One way we can challenge these narratives of shame and fight this story that there’s something wrong with us or that we’re unworthy is by looking at it with curiosity. What was my brain doing? What was my brain experiencing? Can I see if my brain decided it was my fault because the only data it has is leftover residual emotion?
What you’re saying reminds me of how shame in its origin, is very concrete. It’s a coping mechanism. It’s about good or bad, right or wrong. Very concrete thinking.
What you described in the process of exploring our personal definition of pride is really an expansion of that entire story and perspective. It’s looking at, yeah, there was a lot going on there. Maybe realizing that that shame goes far back. When we look at sexuality or gender, a lot of times we realize there’s an early awareness of this pivotal aspect of identity that is going to be rejected or hurt or harmed.
That brings me to Polyvagal Theory. I was watching a Ted Talk by Crystal Rasmussen, A Queer Journey From Shame to Self-love. Crystal referenced that at certain points safety was more important than curing shame.
When we think about the language of being in the closet, what we’re describing is hiding. One of our oldest forms of survival, our most powerful, is the freeze or kind of hide response.
When we access that dorsal vagal reaction. Sometimes people have the idea of pride that’s very concrete, you come out and then you’re good. I really agree with Crystal, and it really resonates in working with youth, that safety is the most important. If you are an environment or a contact or situation where you could be unsafe by coming out, then you may choose not to. That may be one of the best choices that you have, particularly because all around the world, people with queer identities are still victimized and targeted and attacked. We’ve made so much progress and there is still so much to be made.
Thinking about the aspect of safety within hiding can de-stigmatize it a little bit. Sometimes we can get down on ourselves for being in the closet, or the longer we stay in it can be harder to come out. To really look at that from a survival lens, what you’re doing to surviving. Then, how can we look at our internal and external environment and understand, how can I safely do this? How can I engage in pride? That can come in a lot of different forms. But just validating that that is an appropriate human response to survival.
How else do you see shame manifest behaviorally?
I personally think that within a lot of different mental health symptoms, shame is the underlying fuel. We can see shame influence the experience of depression, of anxiety. We can see it manifest in a hyper-focus on the body or a hyper-focus on what we do with our bodies. It’s really quite fascinating, the myriad of ways that our psyches can cope with shame, this deep disconnection.
In preparing for our talk, I had my own experience of shame that brought some awareness to me that I wasn’t consciously aware of. I noticed myself procrastinating on preparing for this. When I sat with that and tried to connect with what part of me was feeling that resistance, I realized that it was a teenage part of me that had really procrastinated on accepting an aspect of my identity.
I came out in my teen years, but at that point there had already been several years where I knew this thing about me and did everything I could to avoid it.
It was fascinating for me to realize, I have been out for a couple decades and truly, honestly, fully embrace myself and think that I feel no shame, but also underneath the surface, the idea of coming and talking outside of the therapy relationship, which is pretty intimate and confidential, just to speak to queer identity and my own experience, I really noticed that young, closeted part of me and had a really interesting experience with connecting with that and reminding that part that there are other resources here and this is something we’re choosing to do. This is about sharing and ideally helping other people and not so much about performance or the perception of rejection. It was fascinating to uncover a bit of shame hanging out in there.
Sharing that part of your story really exemplifies how we work with shame. As you were talking, I saw you put your hand over your heart for a few moments when you were speaking to that part. As a therapist, I hear compassionate-self energy going towards that younger part who is feeling scared or apprehensive or unsure. Being present and soothing and gentle and kind and allowing that part to share its fears and concerns. At the same time, supporting it in moving forward in a way that is healing.
I find that for myself and for many people, that more than one truth can exist at the same time. We can have come out and feel tons of pride about who we are and our queer identity and a lot of times those younger parts are still there. The idea of pride being like, how can we really show up for those inside parts that may still get scared. How can we shift that?
I tapped into lots of self-compassion but what I didn’t mention is that prior to that, there was a different framework. What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I do this? To shift, to change and to be like, wait a minute, what part of me is this coming from? How can I really show up for that part of myself? For this part of myself, offering a sense of choice was quite powerful and soothing.
With humans in general, but particularly with our queer community, it’s really about showing up for that teen or young part. There are so many things that happen early in life that really impact and imprint on us. Around teen years we’re coming to awareness of some aspects of sexuality or gender identity. It happens at different times for different people. Maybe think about, what was that like for me? When did I start to know about that? How did I cope at the time? Could that still be occurring in some ways in life?
Outreach, LGBTQ+ Community Center’s hosting Madison’s third annual Magic Pride Festival as a sort of virtual/live hybrid event this month, August 22nd, 1-5pm.
We’ve started talking about ways in which people can make pride celebrations more personal, even more, intra-personal, the relationship with the self.
What are some different ways to help people celebrate pride within themselves as well as with their community?
Outward celebration within the community is so powerful for many people because it offers that opportunity to co-regulate with others and to just be seen and have fun. That outward and external expression of pride can be really fun and is often a necessary part for people.
When we think about pride in a more expansive way, we can look at ‘how can I make this more personal?’ The example I gave was identifying with the part of myself that may have still been holding a little bit of shame and showing up for that part of myself. Essentially, we’re talking about self-acceptance.
So much of what causes us to hide and feel shame is the perception or actual experience of rejection. Without even realizing it, we end up rejecting those parts of ourselves. Showing up for those parts of ourselves with a sense of pride can often relate to engaging in first recognition, right? The identification that there is a part of me that still feels that.
I really like the concept of healthy multiplicity. We can have many parts of ourselves, and we should. Using that awareness to witness those aspects of pride and shame within us. Writing is a purely powerful tool for that. It’s about being present and offering witness to something.
You can journal with your parts. Identify that part and then from that self-energy, an Internal Family Systems technique, the self-healing aspect that we all have within, communicate with those younger parts or that part who feels shame. Journaling back and forth sometimes opens things up and builds that relationship. That’s where I think a lot of that healing can happen.
Journaling puts us in the front of our brain. If we look at it neurologically, we’re in our prefrontal cortex, we’re not reliving the shame. It gives us space to work with the shame and communicate with the parts of ourselves that might be holding shame. Writing is often an expression of goodwill towards parts of ourselves and an expression of ‘I see you and I’m here with you.’ We want to look at the original wounds, often rejection or trauma, and provide something else. Sometimes that can come with writing.
Music can also be really powerful. Sometimes I’ll throw on some music. What does that part of myself want? Do I want to have a dance party to my favorite song in my house? Do I want to dance with other people? Maybe I’ll throw on music from that time in my life, some 90s. It can be really fun. Just the idea of playing. That could be at a celebration or out in a park meeting with friends.
Ultimately focusing on that idea of reconnection in some way. Shame, at the end of the day, is a relational wound and there’s a relationship we can build upon within ourselves.
Alex, thank you so much for shifting the perspective. Not only can someone heal through relationships with others, but also sharing what a person can do to facilitate internal pride.
Often throughout the day we can have awareness of that. If we feel a sense of shame come up. I often describe shame as this invisible emotion that can camouflage itself in different ways, sometimes we’re aware of it, sometimes we’re not. There’s often a pretty somatic experience to it. We can feel that response. Feeling your gut, your face might flush, maybe our shoulders roll in, tension.
If you think about it, it almost makes our body contract. It’s a pulling in. What better way to survive in hiding than to close our bodies. The shoulders come forward, we get smaller in an attempt to protect. If we notice those feelings or shifts in our body, we can bring awareness to that, expand our body, open those arms a little bit, and, or even just acknowledge that feeling or that part. I’m here with you. I see you. Sometimes even just acknowledgement can be a really powerful experience.
Thinking about the body on a continuum as well. We roll our shoulders in because we’re protecting our organs, the most vulnerable aspect of our system. It’s so natural for all of us to pull in, but maybe completely sitting up and exposing ourselves feels like too much.
Perhaps someone can practice with opening up with only one hand while putting the other arm across their waist and then noticing if they’re feeling safe. Can we bring compassion to that area of the body? Building that relationship with those parts that are often pushed away because we hold this trauma in our bodies. When we can acknowledge and feel it in our system, we become more fully present, more fully whole. The mind and body are so inherently connected.
We can heal by movement and for so many of the members of the queer community, a big aspect of the healing journey is working with the body. If anyone’s not ready to sit down and talk with the therapist, you might find a similar amount of healing by engaging in movement-based techniques.
It can be really powerful because we’re no longer hunched over protecting our organs in survival if we’re expanding, if we’re doing yoga, walking, dancing. Ecstatic dance can be a really cool and powerful way for people to embrace themselves and feel a sense of pride.
Thank you so much, Alex. Until next time, take care.
Today, we want to share all of the voices that make Insight tick. We want to give a voice to everyone; therapists, case managers, and support staff. So, we asked them four questions.
What helps you get out of your head and into your body?
What have you learned from your work in mental health that you wish everyone knew?
What or who inspires you? How do you get motivated?
If you had a theme song that played every time you showed up for work, what would it be?
This has been such an entertaining project. We work as a team, we’re friends and colleagues. We know each other very well, but I was surprised and humbled to learn more about the beautiful humans that make Insight such a special place to be.
Before we start, Jess would like you to know this episode is being recorded in her car in a park in Madison so you may hear some beautiful rain sprinkling down on the roof.
Abby Kearns:
Hi, my name is Abby. I’m a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Certified Parent Coach at Insight.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is taking off my shoes and socks and feeling the surface underneath my feet. It reminds me that I’m rooted right now.
I wish that everyone knew that intense feelings don’t last forever. Oftentimes big feelings or super intense emotions feel like they’re lasting forever. In reality they only last a few seconds or a few minutes. If you can ride them out and pay attention to the shift in your body, it will change.
Who or whom inspires me or motivates me. I generally keep two people in mind at all times. They’re usually women and people that I know. In the pandemic, I often would think of my grandma who lived in Germany and went through World War II. I look up people in my life, and then I often look to sometimes celebrities or other people. Presently, Glennon Doyle, Michelle Obama, and Sarah Laundry are just a few.
If I had a theme song that I played every time I showed up to work, it would be, This Is Me from The Greatest Showman. I think that every client should listen to the song and pay attention to the lyrics in it.
Awesome. I love that song. I love it too, so much.
Victoria Ellington-Deitz:
Hi, yeah, I’m Victoria and I am a Mental Health Counselor and Body Centered Therapist here at Insight Counseling and Wellness.
First, a body scan. Turning my attention inward and noticing the sensations or what I find in my body. Also, connection with another being or an element like in nature. Listening to the birds. Looking out at a tree. The last thing is asking myself, how am I doing? Asking inward and actually listening to the answer. I think that’s a really important part.
What I’ve learned from my work in mental health that I wish to pass on to everyone is that mental health counseling actually works. Therapy works. One can actually overcome mental health symptoms. I’ve seen it over and over again. In the meantime, we can live fulfilling lives as we process and heal.
What inspires me and motivates me is the good in all of us. I actually see it every day working with the humans I work with.
If I had a theme song that played every time I showed up for work, it would be Trusty and True by Damien Rice. When I work, when I’m with others, I want to invite the whole of everyone and celebrate what’s working and heal what needs healing and attend to what needs to be attended to. The song is about that.
Matt Herrmann:
Hi, I’m Matt. I’m an LPC I T at Insight Counseling and Wellness.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is really anything that is sports related. Playing basketball. Going for bike rides. I love throwing frisbee. Anything that can help me get into that flow state.
One thing that I’ve learned that I wish everybody in the world knew is that it’s okay to not be okay. I think it’s the most fundamental piece. We’re human beings with human problems. It’s okay to not be okay.
Something that really inspires me and motivates me is my family more than anything. I just have a wonderful family that’s been very supportive throughout my whole life and I just want to do well and be well.
If I had a theme song that showed up every time I came to work, it’d probably be Never Going To Give You Up because it’s fun and it makes me smile and I kind of can’t help but laugh every time I hear it.
That’s awesome.
Lynn Hyland:
Hi, I’m Lynn Hyland. I am a Clinical Psychologist.
What really helps me get out of my head into my body is Body Pump. It’s a class for weightlifting and I just spend time focusing on each muscle group as I lift because the Body Pump does it in different muscle groups. It is my mindfulness break about three times a week, and I found that that’s the best way to get out of my mind.
What I learned from my work in mental health that I wish everybody else in the world knew is that most everyone fears that they are not normal or that they’re crazy, but almost everyone is normal and not crazy. You look at others from outside their brains. You don’t know what they are thinking, but their behavior says they’re okay, nice, happy, whatever. From inside your brain, your thoughts are not okay. Not nice, not happy, not whatever you assume they aren’t having the same thoughts, so you think that you are abnormal or crazy or not nice or whatever. Believe me. Everyone has similar thoughts. You are all normal.
Who inspires me the most are my children. My son Taz is a positive force, so positive with so much care for others. My daughter Will, is prepared to fight for others. They inspire me even when they’re making me crazy.
If I had a theme song that played every time I showed up for work, it would be I’m All Right by Kenny Loggins. When I get to work, it’s all about the clients and not me. So, anything in my life that might be bothering me needs to be set aside. As the song says, don’t nobody worry about me.
Kelly Kendricks:
Hi, I’m Kelly Kendricks and I’m an LPC IT.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is listening to music which will eventually lead to me singing, which will eventually lead to me dancing. People who know me well say, oh, he’s singing. Watch out the Disney show is about to begin. Singing is very regulating because it activates your Vagus Nerve.
What I’ve learned from my work in mental health that I wish everybody else in the world knew is that it’s a good thing for everyone. There’s a stigma about mental health. You go to a doctor for a physical need. You should see someone for a mental need. I wish everybody knew that and knew that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with finding someone to talk to.
Who or what inspires or motivates me? Well, actually I try to keep going and try to make myself a better person, make myself better at the things that I want to do, whether it’s work, whether it’s play. If it’s my writing, if it’s singing and dancing and theater, I actually inspire myself. It’s like, I can do better and that makes me want to keep going.
Awesome. I love that because for each of us to find a part of ourselves that inspires us is just as important as looking to external sources.
If I had a theme song to play every time I showed up for work, it would be My Shot from the musical Hamilton, because I feel that I am young, scrappy and hungry, and I am not throwing away my shot. There’s an opportunity for something each day and life is just a lot shorter than you think it is. I like to take my shot every single day.
Very cool. Thank you.
Joe Lambert:
Hey, I’m Joe Lambert with Insight Counseling and Wellness. I’m an LPC and a C SAC, which means Clinical Substance Abuse Counselor.
What helps me get out of my head and more into my body? I have discovered pinball in the last year, during the pandemic. It takes me from my worries into something that I have to use my senses for. I have hand-eye coordination and I have to pay attention to different prompts with dings and bells and whistles and sounds and multiple flippers and multiple objectives throughout the board.
What I have learned from my work in mental health that I wish everybody else in the world knew is how important it is to take care of yourself. So many people spend so much time and energy on things for the house or things for the kids or things for the job or things with family. All those things are important, but if you’re not there for yourself, spiritually, emotionally, and physically, then you can’t be as present for those other people in your life.
What inspires me, motivates me? Different kinds of artists in different kinds of fields, people that are purposeful and don’t care about critics. I think of Bob Dylan, as an artist, his words inspire me. I think of Bill Murray’s actions and popping into different places, not listening to those external voices and judgments, but getting the most out of what you want to bring to the world. Those kinds of people.
If I had a theme song that played every time I showed up for work, it would be I’ve Saved The World Today by the Eurythmics. Something about Annie’s lyrics, I really identify with. Look it up. Hey, Hey, I’ve saved the world today.
Elyse Laing:
Hi, I’m Elyse and I am an LPC and work with children, adolescents, and families.
What helps get me out of my head is playing and snuggling with my dogs and my son. I’m also really into sensory stimulation, so if I’m really stuck in my head, I’ll mix it up and do something to kind of shock my sensory system.
What I’ve learned from working in the mental health field that I wish other people knew is it’s okay to be selfish with your time and energy. And, if something is bothering you, speak out rather than shoving it down only to burst later
Who inspires me? My son inspires me. He’s been through so much in his short life and through it all, he’s the happiest, most easy-going little human I’ve ever met.
My theme song that would play every time I showed up for work would be Shake It Off by Taylor Swift, because I’m all about empowering clients to be themselves and embracing it regardless of what other people think.
Kate Lauth:
Hi, my name is Kate.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is stretching and breathing. I like to feel the floor, roll my neck, reach my arms up above my head, give my jaw and my neck a little massage and take some deep breaths.
What I’ve learned from my work in mental health that I wish everybody else in the world knew is that people are almost always doing their best. A little empathy goes a long way. Every behavior is an attempt to meet a need and every person possesses the innate capacity for healing.
There are so many people who inspire me. My family, especially my mom. There are so many family members in my immediate and extended family who are passionate, fierce, and bright. They’re lawyers, doctors, social workers, teachers, environmental activists. It’s really amazing. I’m also inspired by many leaders in the field of mental health and wellness and spiritual development like Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, Brene Brown, Esther Perel, Terry Walls, Pat Ogden, Cheryl Strayed, and 70 Selassie to name a few.
If I had a theme song that played every time I showed up for work, it would be, This Girl Is On Fire by Alicia Keys. I can’t listen to that song and not feel pumped up.
Ann Lewis:
Hi, my name is Ann. I’m a Licensed Professional Counselor.
When I want to get out of my head and into my body, I just stretch. What I love about stretching is that you can do it anywhere and it’s not a special skill. I can reach my hands up to the sky or I can roll my shoulders and bend from side to side. It’s so simple, but there’s nothing like it to quickly get me out of my head and into my body.
I learned so many things in my work in mental health, but one of the big things that I’d love to tell everybody in the world is that you’re responsible for your own feelings. It’s a game changer.
I’m inspired by the people I work with every day in so many ways. But the person who inspires me every single day is my mother. After a head-on collision in her forties, she had to relearn everything from holding your head up to reading a book. This was an exhausting process. She never fully recovered. She couldn’t go back to teaching because of the limitation she had. She had only been a teacher for about five years as she got into teaching later in life. This happened during the Vietnam War and as a military wife, she was in a military hospital with young soldiers who had been injured. She had so much compassion for them. Once she recovered as much as she could, she tutored many students and became a lifeline to these students’ parents. She showed me every day how to lead a good life in spite of what life throws at you.
I couldn’t think of a theme song but my sister asked the question of my nephews and they said that my theme song would be Defying Gravity from Wicked. I’m really not quite sure what they were thinking.
Have you heard that song before? Oh, that’s beautiful that they picked that for you. That says a lot about how they feel about you.
Emily Natera:
Hi, I’m Emily Natera. I’m an LPC at Insight.
Some of the things that help me get out of my head and into my body; if it needs to be kind of quick and dirty I use EFT tapping from Emotional Freedom Technique. The whole purpose is to create some healing and some changing of the energy in your own body. For me, I use two tapping spots. I tap on the inside of my eyebrows, and I tap under my eyes. About six to eight taps with two fingers repeatedly until I kind of feel that release. And that’s the easiest and quickest way for me to get out of my head and get grounded again.
That is so cool. I’m going to research that when I get home and figure out how to tap. I love it.
It’s a whole thing, there are nine tapping spots. You’re supposed to do it in a specific order. You do a frame. You change your thoughts. For me, honestly, it’s like tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, whoosh.
There are some things that I’ve learned working in mental health, it’s really hard to pick just one, but I think the most important thing is that it’s okay to ask for help. Not only is it okay to ask for help, but it’s connection and relationship. That’s what actually cultivates an environment for growth and change. Isolation is what creates an environment where your struggles get amplified. To ask for help is actually a sign of deep care and compassion for yourself and strength to recognize, I can’t do this alone We’re humans and none of us can do it alone. The other thing that is really important is that people aren’t defined by a moment in time. One action, one choice, one feeling, isn’t the thing that’s going to define your forever. The only thing that’s constant is change. We have the ability to reinvent ourselves, to reinvent our very sense of being, at any time.
It’s so important to remember that, too. I completely agree. We all need to hear that and be reminded of that. I recognize this is probably a cliche, but it’s a cliche for a reason.
My goal every morning is to leave my little corner of the world a little bit better, a little bit brighter, a little bit happier. Anything I can do in my little corner of the world to know that I made a difference, that’s kind of the end goal, right?
Tara Rollins:
Hi, I’m Tara Rollins. I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and a board-certified Dance Movement Therapist.
My favorite thing to do to get out of my head into my body is to either do some yoga poses or watch a yoga video. Do some stretching, get outside for a walk or, my ultimate favorite, turning on music and dancing.
One of the things that I’ve learned being part of the mental health field that I wish everyone would know is that there isn’t one method or technique that works for everyone. Usually, the best intervention is a creative blend of techniques. Everyone can benefit from having a safe person to listen to them and make them feel heard and understood. Going to therapy or getting other forms of mental health support doesn’t mean that something is wrong with you. It means that you’re taking good care of yourself because you deserve to have a happy and fulfilling life.
I am motivated and inspired every day by my clients who work so hard to work through so many amazing challenges in their lives and keep showing up every week to see me. I’m also really inspired by the people in helping professions who have stepped up to help us all during COVID-19.
If I had to have a theme song playing every time I walked into a room, that would be just awesome. It would probably be Side Pony by Lake Street Dive because they are my favorite band and I listen to them all the time to make me smile. Also, the song is about having fun, being silly and just living your life.
Hey, it’s Jeanne here. If you have ever met Tara Rollins, you know Side Pony is the perfect song for her. Check it out on the Spotify playlist that accompanies this podcast.
Full disclosure at this point in our recording, we had some computer issues so from here on out, we had each person record their answers.
Catherine Wooddell:
First is Catherine Wooddell. One of our talented Case Managers.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is listening to music with kitchen dancing and good smells like sniffing my lemon verbena plant. I love the smell of lemon verbena.
What I have learned from my work in mental health that I wish everybody else in the world knew is that people are made of their experiences. When you are honored with even a small piece of someone’s story, if you listen closely, everything about them and where they are will make sense. If you can listen closely enough to really hear where they’ve been.
What or who inspires or motivates me? I’m going to go with something a little bit historical. Sojourner Truth’s story about how she escaped slavery. She was in a county in New York where slavery was legal. It was legal county by county at that time in that state. A couple of counties over it was not legal and she knew that. One day she said that she heard Jesus speak to her. For me, it doesn’t really matter who or what you name it. She felt what some people might think of as intuition that right now was the moment to go. At the time she had a baby girl with her and she went and got her daughter and took off running. She just took off and she kept going until she was in a free county and then she was free with her baby. What she did next was she sued a white man for selling her son across state lines, because that was illegal. Slavery was legal where he was enslaved, was legal to enslave somebody, but selling him across state lines was illegal. So she sued and she became the first black person to sue a white man. When she won and she got her son his freedom and I think that’s amazing.
If I had a theme song that played every time I showed up for work, it would be Nina Simone, Feeling Good. Giving people the justice of being heard as I’m able to do in my work gives me life.
Maureen Grosse:
Hi, my name is Maureen Grosse and I’m a Yoga Therapist at Insight Counseling and Wellness.
What helps me to get out of my head and into my body is my morning practice of grounding. I put one hand on my belly and one hand on my chest, and then I just breathe. First, I start off noticing how my body moves. I just imagine my breath filling up my belly, front and back, and my chest, front and back, all the way up and follow it back down. Then I tend to visualize myself as a tree growing roots into the ground and reaching my branches to the sun for light and energy. When I get dysregulated or stressed during the day, I can recall myself as a tree with a few breaths to just ground and connect. Since I do it every morning, it’s pretty easy for me to access it in times of distress.
One of the many things I’ve learned from my work in mental health that I wish everybody else in the world knew, honestly, it seems so simple, but it’s just to breathe. If we could all learn how to use our breath as a tool. It’s so powerful. I had an experience with my son when he was two that took me from sheer panic to a grounded sense of ease and peace and it was all because of my breath. I’ve seen this work with clients time and time again. Once people experience it or get it, it’s like a light bulb that goes on and they have their own superpower.
The thing that inspires me or motivates me the most is to see people who are living on purpose, who are living intentionally. It doesn’t have to be an activity that I’m passionate about, but to see other people living intentionally in ways that feed their passions, when I see someone in tune with their passion and living it, it inspires me to do the same with my own passions.
I don’t really have a theme song, but I do, honestly, have what I call a morning mix and a happy bomb playlist. I have Spotify and I made a morning mix playlist that I play every morning. I kind of dance and move and get my vibe right. It kind of shifts and moves any stagnant energy and kind of helps me just focus on positive things. Then I’m able to put myself in a better place for others. I always listened to that on my way to work.
Kylie Taylor:
My name is Kylie.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is yoga. I had no idea how disconnected from my body I was until I started and I’ll feel forever grateful for yoga in my life.
What I’ve learned from my work in mental health, that I wish everybody else in the world knew is that we’re all a lot more alike than we are different. So many of us struggle with the same things. I think if we all tried to be more understanding and listened, so other people felt heard, we would realize this and could avoid a lot of strife
In terms of what inspires or motivates me, that would be music. It has the ability to make me cry, gives me goosebumps and makes me feel alive.
If I had a theme song that played every time I showed up for work, it would be a tie between Foo Fighters, Times Like These, because it reminds me that there are times of renewal and growth and also, JJ Grey and Mofro, The Sun is Shining Down because it reminds me to be eternally grateful for all the wonderful things in my life.
Nikki Cook:
My name is Nikki Cook.
Something that helps me to get out of my head and into my body is being outside, especially when the sun is out and just feeling the warmth of the sun on my body. It immediately takes me into that body space where I’m starting to notice what my body feels like. Another thing that is helpful to me, that I can do at any time is a breathing technique where I focus on lengthening my exhale. When we lengthen our exhale, we engage the part of our nervous system that helps to invite more calm and ease in. Then by connecting with that movement of the breath, you can really feel it in the body. So again, that’s inhale through the nose and then a slow gentle exhale out through the mouth, helps to lengthen that exhale.
Something that I’ve learned from my work in mental health that I wish everyone else would be aware of is that mental and physical health are not separate. They are intertwined and it’s equally important for us to attend to both. We can have improvement in our wellbeing and in our lives that we wish for so much. We might schedule our yearly physicals and our check-in with our doctors and our dentists. It’s also important to take time to check in with a mental health professional so that you are getting that support that you need as well.
Someone, or a group of people, that inspire me, motivate me, are my three teenage daughters, especially over this past year+ in the pandemic. I have seen them navigate so many difficult situations, loss of so many important milestones, graduations, proms, homecoming, that really important time with friends at this time on your life. They’ve continued to move through these challenges with grace while also creating some space to really grieve and feel that disappointment. It’s been so helpful for me to see them do that. It’s given me permission to do that as well.
Janet Cassidy:
Hi, my name is Janet. I am the Office Manager at Insight.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is anything to do with nature. I spend a lot of time outside; winter, summer, spring, fall. I find laying on the ground and connecting to the earth always brings me back to where I need to be.
One of the things that I’ve learned from my work in mental health is when I started this job, I really thought that trauma was something that only could be defined by the police being called or something really horrific. By starting this, I realized that being bullied in school is trauma or being bullied by a parent. It was really eye opening for me because my background is not educationally in mental health. That was actually quite amazing for me to discover for myself. It’s like, wow, I really can say I did not like being bullied and it affected me my whole life and that’s okay.
Who inspires me or motivates me. There’s just so many people that I see out in the world now that can inspire and motivate me. I really enjoy the generation I like to call them the Tiktok generation. They just have done some incredible things through the pandemic and just been so clever. It gives me hope for the future. I get motivated by just knowing that the world is out there for me to see. I like to go out and travel, see the world. Every culture motivates me. Every country. And, of course, nature does all the time. It keeps me going because it keeps me curious and exploring.
If I had a theme song that would play every time I showed up for work, what I thought originally was God Save The Queen, but I don’t know. Under Pressure keeps coming to mind. I don’t totally feel huge pressure, but it’s just something that came to mind. And there you have it.
Julie Ann Orenstein:
Julie Ann Orenstein, another one of our super fabulous Case Managers.
Something that really helps me get out of my head and into my body is box breathing. When I box breathe, I like to close my eyes, I breathe in through my nose while counting to four slowly, then hold my breath inside while counting, again slowly, to four, then I began to slowly exhale for four seconds. I repeat this about three times. I love box breathing because it is a powerful, yet simple technique that really helps to clear my mind and relax my body.
Something I’ve learned from my work in mental health that I wish everybody else in the world knew is the most important relationship is the one we have with ourselves.
I am motivated and inspired by the folks that I work with, their strength, resiliency, and dedication to accomplishing their goals.
If I had a theme song that played every time I showed up for work, it would be You’ve Got A Friend by Carol King because well, friendships and Carol King are everything.
Jason Klein:
Hi, I’m Jason, the VP here at Insight.
What helps me get out of my head and into my body is being out in nature, especially fly fishing. We’re lucky enough here in Southern Wisconsin to have some great streams for trout and it’s a sport that combines both your mind and your body, and you have to be in the moment. It can be tremendously frustrating at times, but it can also be really rewarding. Even in the worst-case scenario, you can’t catch anything that day, you’re out in nature, you’re got to bubbling stream, you’ve got birds, you’ve got deer. It’s almost always a win.
What I’ve learned from working in mental health is just how much energy and empathy and skill goes into the mental health business. All of our therapists here at Insight are just so invested in their clients. It’s probably not just us, it’s everyone in the mental health industry. It’s something you don’t fake.
What inspires me is anyone who is creative, especially when it comes to the visual arts. My background is in graphic design and art so whenever I see printmakers or woodworkers, the things out there that people are doing are just incredible. It doesn’t have to be a grandiose project; just little things can be quite outstanding.
As far as a song I’m going to go with Billy Braggs, “Handyman Blues” mostly because when I’m not doing the payroll or the website, I’m the one who gets the phone call that the fax machine is broken or the doors are stuck. So, a little bit of irony there.
Ariyanna Toth:
Hi, this is Ariyanna.
Whatever helps me get out of my head and into my body is heat. Especially living here in Wisconsin. Anything that is a hot temperature, whether it’s a hot shower or hot bath, even just running my hands under hot water during the day. A heating pad, a heated blanket, you name it, I have it. It’s just one of those ways that really gets me back in my body and grounded.
What I have learned from my work in mental health is that everything is temporary. It’s easy to get stuck in a moment and think that that moment is going to be forever, that emotion is going to be forever. What I’ve learned in this field is that emotions never stay. Things are so temporary. Just let the moment pass because anything could be possible for that next month.
The person that inspires me the most is my grandma. She was raised in India in the early 1930s, 1940s and wasn’t allowed to have an education as a woman. She fought to study on her own and fought to get an education for herself and ended up getting her master’s and working as a chemist. It’s a reminder to myself as a grad student, of how we take a lot of things for granted and how much privilege there is in just these little things.
Angela Schueffner:
Next step is Angela Schueffner, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and the leader of Insights, A Team.
What helps you get out of your head and into your body? I use the five senses, grounding a lot. Pushing my heels into the ground feeling any sensations on my skin or the body. What do I taste? What do I smell? What do I hear? What do I see? As well as any sensory input, strong sensory input like ice, to really bring attention to the body.
What have you learned from your work in mental health that you wish everyone else in the world knew? There’s a lot of getting stuck in, why am I doing this, what is wrong with me or the frustration with ourselves, as well as others, rather than understanding that we, and everyone, are behaving in ways that we’ve learned, that we’ve needed to, that has served us in some way, or that we just had to based on the people around us at the time. Other than getting stuck in the frustration, thinking about where we learned that and focusing on how we want to respond now. Meeting ourselves with compassion and then shifting into, now I am safe. How do I want to respond? Focusing on the now presencing self and the now.
What or whom inspires motivates you? I would definitely say my kids. Seeing the obvious impact day-to-day that I have, in that my own behaviors, language, interactions, are reflected in them. That causes me to continually reflect on what I want for them as well as the world and their impact on it and their relationships. Then, seeing how the shifts that I make show up in them and change their interactions. How I interact with other people, I see them interacting with other people in similar ways and thinking about what I want for them and the world. Knowing that each person has a vast impact, unknown how each interaction, not knowing what the impact will be. So really motivating me to do my own work and my own healing and being really intentional in my interactions.
My theme song. I guess I will just have to go with the random song that seems to just always pop up in my head whenever I’m trying to get things done and not knowing where it came from or exactly why. It is the A-Team. I do not understand why, but I’m going to go with that.
Tammi Zine:
Next step is Tammi Zine, a Licensed Professional Counselor here at Insight.
What I like to do when I’m in my head and not in my body is what’s called 5, 5, 5. That is five things that I see in the room or the environment around me, then five things that I hear, whether it’s in the room or outside of the room, and then five neutral sensations that are in my body, such as the temperature of my hands or the top of my head or my heartbeat. That really can help bring me back. The other thing that I like to do is a grounding technique where I feel my feet on the Earth, really focus on them, and then I lift my toes and I anchor those heels into the ground and feel that connection. Then, I slowly move to where my toes are on the ground and my heels are up. Then, I place my foot flat on the ground. That can also really help me focus and be more in my body.
What I’ve learned in the mental health field that I wish everybody else in the world knew…that is a difficult question for me to answer because I think the mental health field is always changing. I’ve been in the field now for 20 years and it has changed. It continues to evolve. There’s still so much that we don’t know. In fact, the more I’m in this field, the more I want to learn and discover. I do think that we all have a unique healing inside of us and we can learn to access this in lots of different ways. We can learn to validate our own pain story. We can heal. Recovery is possible.
When I think about who inspires me or motivates me, honestly, it’s my clients. I know how much courage it can take to walk through that clinic door and then to open up potentially other scary or painful doors. I get to work in a field where I get to witness all the ways that people are amazing and I truly am honored when someone chooses me as a guide to walk with them on a part of that healing journey.
Finally, it’s time for Jess and I to weigh in, take it away
Jessica Warpula Schultz:
Hi, my name is Jessica. I’m a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Sensory Motor Psychotherapy, and I’m also the co-host of Insight Mind Body Talk.
When I went to get out of my head and into my body, I lift weights. I feel really strong. I feel powerful. Not only that, but when I’m lifting, I have to be really mindful because of previous injuries. Also, because of breath, what it does is really shift me out of my thoughts. I don’t have room for worry. I don’t have room for self-judgment. I just have to notice my rib cage expanding to ensure that I’m getting a great diaphragmatic breath. I have to ground my feet and push through the floor. I have to watch to make sure my shoulder and my arms are moving in a way that supports my body. I feel really strong and amazing. I think that anything that helps you feel that amazing is something you should practice as often as possible.
When I think about what I’ve learned from being a therapist and that they wish everyone else in the world knew is our nervous system is so powerful. We have something called the autonomic nervous system. It uses neuroception to continually scan our internal experience, our external environment, as well as the nervous systems of people around us. Always scanning for threat. What happens is anytime there is a danger or even something that feels like a life threat, or is a life threat, our nervous system and brain respond so fast, faster than we could ever even think to come up with a response. Our bodies have this amazing system that protects us. We either flee. We have a fight response, attachment cry, we’ll befriend the threat. Maybe we’ll freeze, maybe we’ll shut down or collapse. While those responses have a negative stigma to them, they’re actually beautiful way to ensure our survival and often has nothing to do with us. When I learned about the autonomic nervous system and how it was shaped throughout my lifetime. When I learned I could shape it to respond in a new way and I could shape that system to feel safe more often, it was a real game changer for me. In the work I’ve done, it’s been a game changer for some of my clients.
What inspires me and motivates me. That’s a really hard one. I think I have the type of brain that finds inspiration wherever I go. I have always felt like there’s something more and that I’ve got to find it. I have a hungry mind. People though, people that inspire me. There’s professional inspirations, such as my colleagues. I love working at Insight. Especially the clients that I work with, the vulnerability and courage displayed on a daily basis. I often end my day feeling so grateful to even have been witness, let alone a guide, on the journeys of the people that I’ve worked with. I feel very privileged to be a therapist, very honored. Personally, what inspires me? I think the rule breakers. The people who break intergenerational patterns, the people who create a voice for themselves. The people who stand up for others, the ones who believe that it’s their responsibility to help change the world. That can look different on every person. I think about the musician on the Ani DiFranco, one of the loves of my life and how much her music has changed who I am. My partner who grows and challenges himself and checks his implicit bias and wants more for himself and for us and for the world. Lastly, the women in my life, I often go to them for support and for guidance. I don’t know what I would do without them.
If I had a theme song that played every time I entered a room, it would depend on my mood and what I’m doing. Of course, got to have some Lizzo “Feeling Good” “Soulmate”. When I’m moving my body, Carrie Underwood’s song Champion makes me feel like I’m kick ass and so strong. Lastly, Meghan Trainer has this really fun song called “Bad-Ass Woman” that for me, epitomizes I’m more than a body. I am a voice and a heart and a soul and a mind.
Jeanne Kolker:
It’s Jeannie again.
When I need to get out of my head and into my body, I go upside down. Just getting my head below my heart shifts my system. It could be something as simple as reaching down to touch my toes in a forward fold. Maybe I go into a downward facing dog or a child’s pose wherever I am, or even a headstand if I’m feeling saucy. Some physical change of perspective is usually all I need to reset myself.
Something that I wish everyone knew. Something that I’ve learned in therapy, is that we are so resilient. Humans are so strong, and we need to be reminded daily of how epically awesome we are. I’ve seen people endure so much pain and transform that pain into growth. I’m constantly inspired every day by my clients, my team, and my friends and family.
Speaking of my family, I am so motivated and energized by them. My parents worked so hard every day to give me this amazing gift, this life that I’m living intentionally to try to help as many people as I can in my little corner of the world. So, I thank my family for continuing to serve as motivation for me every day.
If I had a theme song for every day that I show up at work, I’m going to reach back into the archives back to my days of karaoke dive bars in downtown Dubuque, Iowa. My favorite song to sing was “I Will Survive” by Gloria Gaynor. When I show up for work with my clients and my team, I want everyone to hear the message that they will survive. As Gloria sings, I’ve got all my life to live, and I’ve got all my love to give, and I’ll survive. It’s necessary to be reminded of our power and our resilience plus its disco and I just dare you not to dance.
And that’s all folks. I hope you enjoyed hearing all of our voices.
If you want to find that Spotify playlist of all of our theme songs, head over to Insightmadison.com/podcast.
Thank you again for joining us on insight, mind, body talk, a body centered mental health podcast. We hope today’s episode was empowering and supported you in strengthening your mind, body connection.
We’re your hosts, Jeanne and Jess, please join us again as we continue to explore integrative approaches to wellbeing.
Our topic today is somatic expressive therapy. Our guest is Victoria Ellington-Deitz.
Victoria is a licensed professional counselor and a registered somatic movement therapist. She works with teens and adults. She helps clients experiencing anxiety, stress, trauma, depression, anger, self-harming behaviors, and problems regulating behavior and emotion. She also works at Insight Counseling and Wellness. I’m lucky enough to call her my colleague.
Welcome, Victoria. I’m excited to learn more about somatic expressive therapy.
Let’s start by explaining the model and the intention of somatic expressive therapy.
Somatic expressive therapy is a body centered therapy created by Dan Levin, who trains out of Life Movement in Massachusetts. It focuses on the felt sense; the feelings and sensations we have in our body. The expressive part is using art, movement, writing, journaling, any kind of expression to help understand and deepen our connection with the body centered part of our knowing.
Our thoughts have all kinds of opinions. They want to lead us to interpret what we’re experiencing. Yet so much of what we’re experiencing is unconscious or implicit. This is a way of allowing our thoughts to take the back seat and developing a deeper listening for what is really going on. That helps us get to our deeper beliefs, deeper emotions, and understand patterns that we get stuck in but are not sure what has happened.
What does it look like the process?
Depending on the person, there are many different ways to use somatic expressive therapy.
First, we sit down together and it’s always an invitation, wherever the person is comfortable. It might start with talking. Is there a situation that the person struggling with? If so, we can check in and see how’s your body reacts. Do you notice any sensation?
We could also start with a body scan. A body scan is noticing your body and then turning inward and scanning for any sensations or emotions. We have a body scan meditation on the podcast website so you can practice a body scan after this if you’d like.
We’re gleaning information. We’ll find a sensation in the body. Often what comes up is tension in the shoulders. We’ll go to the shoulders and ask what it’s connected to. Is it connected to the situation? We can then go to drawing or to the art piece. Maybe there is a movement to accentuate the feeling in the shoulders. The intention is to glean more information. Our thoughts want to interpret for us but here we’re trying to work directly with the sensation.
Let’s say we’re using art and you tell me you have no art skills. That was already a slight judgement. Like how would I even create or draw attention in my shoulders zone? I love stick figures and coloring and blobs.
It’s a way of helping us, especially if we’re going towards something that has overwhelmed our nervous system, to look at it objectively. It gives us one degree of separation from what’s going on internally, which our biology often causes us to move away from.
We are using somatic expressive therapy, using attention, to move towards attending to what is going on with us. We can attend to patterns, emotional feelings, or overwhelm that seems scary to us, or we don’t want to move towards. It’s a survival strategy to avoid, shut down or disengage.
It sounds like this process you’re describing first honors the emotions in our body and what’s happening and then uses our body’s wisdom to get more information.
The art helps engage your prefrontal cortex which allows us, in a way, to step into that one degree of separation where it’s safer to explore. It’s not so alive in the system, it’s on the page.
Can you share with me an example of what that looks like, so that we can imagine it and understand it more?
Often, we carry tension in our shoulders. If we turn towards our body, we automatically feel this tension. To identify that, we would move our attention towards the body, have a short body scan, just noticing. Then we can go to drawing. Can you draw a simple picture or a symbol of what that feels like, what that tension is? Some are very simple; some people get elaborate and that’s fine too.
Then we use the picture as an external way of looking at the tension in our shoulders. We talk directly to the sensation. We’re dipping into the slower part of our processing; some people call it wisdom brain. It’s just the slower thinking. We have quick thinking that we need every day. It keeps us safe in day-to-day interactions. Then we have slower thinking, broader thinking, more perspective, bringing in different factors to fully explore the situation.
We asked the picture to explain any concepts of the world. It sounds like a belief. How does that resonate with you? So, checking in with the body, checking in with that sensation, does that resonate, there could be a belief in there that you are responsible.
Then we move towards emotions. The intention is to notice, to attend to, but also find out what that area needs. What did your shoulders need? Can we add an image? Is there a visualization there? Is that belief really working for us? As we explore, we’re continually checking in with the person, first somatically and then using the art to express that tension.
Suddenly a drawing about shoulder tension or a symbol drawing, can lead us to a place of, wow, I feel like I’m really expected to carry the outcome of not only myself, but everyone around me, to make sure everyone’s okay, to make sure everyone’s emotions are okay, to make sure good things happen.
It takes that slower knowing, that slower processing system, to find that wisdom. We don’t do that often. We are just trying to get through that day and resolve what happens next.
Often, when I lead meditations, people say, I didn’t even notice my jaw had tension until slowing down and going inward. I didn’t notice my shoulders. One of them was curling up and in because of tension and stress until I slowed down and explored that. Then, what beliefs are being held in my body?
We are not taught to slow down and to navigate our body sensations. It’s not taught in our culture. To sit back and listen to that slower wisdom or listen to our body, through our bodies or any way that we can sit quietly.
Once the information about what’s happening is discovered or some deeper beliefs uncovered, what happens next in the process?
Then, we become curious about it and how to help. A lot of times the need for safety comes up. Our body holds a lot of experiences where we felt unsafe, unsupported, or that our system was overwhelmed.
Biologically it’s unconscious. We automatically close up and organize ourselves away from it. So, when we turn towards it, fear can arise because we get the signal from our alarm system that we shouldn’t go there. There’s danger. But it’s a biological misunderstanding. Dan Levin describes it as swimming upstream. We have to swim against our natural instincts to become curious about this pattern.
When safety comes up, we get to talk about. We get to figure out how we can create a sense of safety and move forward from there. Everything comes back to creating this safe container for the exploration to happen.
I can imagine that part of the work of somatic expressive therapy would also involve helping settle the nervous system and helping the whole brain and body feel safe. How does that show up in this work?
Often when we are dysregulated or we feel overwhelmed or, however, it comes up for us when we feel scared, our thoughts are going to explain it. Often, we can’t rely on our thoughts because they are really quick and based on past information. We work with the immediacy of our body and that taps into connection with our nervous system.
Moving towards the body, there’s an unconscious message that it’s scary. When we can feel our body, even if we’re not in our body, we can feel where we are in relation to our body. That is a step toward soothing our nervous system. There’s more of a connection. Asking what it needs is regulating and helps us feel more ground.
A lot of times our thoughts create a groundlessness. We have a sense of spinning. A sense of confusion.
Art can really help educate our nervous system. That, yes, we’re going to heal here. We are here to reverse a lot of patterns that have not served us or are not serving us now.
We are really big fans of the nervous system and helping the nervous system regulate and shift from activation and survival responses into what’s called ventral vagal, which is a sense of safety and connection and feeling calm and grounded.
What are some strategies that somatic expressive therapy brings to helping the nervous system regulate?
Often, we can’t shift directly to ventral vagal, but we can move towards equilibrium from any part of our nervous system. The goal is always to get to ventral vagal, but you can tap into the positive qualities of sympathetic arousal, like play. It’s personal and we get to experiment. Having ways of being that activate or open up different parts of our brain can lead us there.
Also, in general, curiosity. I use the word curiosity a lot. It helps open up different parts of the brain instead of the parts that want to close us in and keep us safe.
Another concept we use a lot is gratitude. The intention of gratitude is to help activate a different part of our brain that helps us shift away from the narrow perspective of our fear response.
If I wake up full of fear and anxiety. I’ll notice that and, if I can, call it out. There’s the fight or flight response. There’s my fire alarm. Then start wherever you can. I’m going to start by thinking, I’m grateful.
Another concept or way of being is learning to savor. Savoring is a way to help our senses open up and shift away from our alarm response. It is just noticing and really taking things in. Seeing the blue of the sky, really seeing it. Feeling the coolness of the air or a breeze. Feeling a soft blanket, really on purpose, noticing that. I like to savor the last bite of a really good meal.
This morning I was sitting on the couch having my morning coffee time and my cat was purring and she was all snugly under a blanket. I just savored it for two or three minutes, slowed myself down to feel the purse sensation, to hear it, to just be with the taste of the coffee, to feel relaxed on the couch and snugly. Those moments help ground you and get you through all the difficulties.
The next is self-appreciation. I like to open it up to just appreciation. Sometimes negative self-talk can really take over because it is connected to our fight or flight response, it’s connected to survival. Some of us have really good self-monitoring systems. If that self-monitoring system is keeping the self-appreciation system out of reach, then we can go to appreciation. It’s not to negate the things that are difficult, it’s to help open different parts of our brain, to create a network in which we can receive. It is important to activate other areas of our brain that then fire together and wire together. It’s activating and creating other neural networks so that it becomes easier and easier to offer gratitude, to savor, to maybe then offer self-appreciation. What we’ve known through experience is being proven. The mindful self-compassion website has all of the studies. This stuff is so cool.
I wanted to bring up something that’s not often discussed when we think about therapy but is understandable and almost expected to be a part of the therapy process. When we offer ourselves compassion, or we savor, or we practice gratitude, sometimes it can ‘poke the beehive’. Can you explain that a little bit more?
When we move towards compassion, in a supported way, and attend to places that didn’t have support, often what comes up is fear and negative self-talk. That’s because compassion is foreign, not necessarily to us, but to our biological system.
Our body holds on to all the situations that we’ve felt overwhelmed in and when we move towards experiencing them as a sensation, they don’t have the network to receive, so what can come up are really difficult emotions. Shame and fear are the two that I see most often.
If someone is doing really good, gentle, kind, productive work, the result or immediate response isn’t what they expect. If they feel shame instead of relief, that can be confusing. Why am I doing this then? I didn’t expect to feel worse. Compassion or support come in and there are no receptors, so it bounces back. Then we automatically think, what’s wrong with me?
What do you recommend then in those moments?
I think education about biology is so important. It’s not the person’s fault, it’s just how their nervous system and their brain are organized. We then get to work to create those networks. We get to reframe that reaction toward understanding that this is your system saying, I don’t know how to take that in, and becoming curious and how to do that. Doing this with a guide can help validate that this is common, this happens to all of us and how we can be curious and take care of ourselves so that we can continue forward instead of protecting ourselves and turning away.
The therapy process isn’t perfectly linear. There are experiences that sometimes feel a little harder before they feels better, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.
I think that often we aren’t given the room to be in the moment with ourselves and show up and welcome what comes up. Having that space and time, it takes practice.
‘Looking at the stuff isn’t bad, it’s just hard, but we can do hard things and when we do hard things, we transform.’
Thank you so much, Victoria. Thank you for joining us.
Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast.
Today we’re going to talk about self-compassion.
Self-compassion comes up a lot as therapists and in our personal lives. It is one of the things I personally practice most often. It is something that we all need and all struggle with. It’s so essential.
What does that even mean? Let’s start with the topic of compassion. Compassion comes from Latin, meaning to suffer with. It’s suffering with people. When have compassion for others, we’re able to be with them and understand their suffering.
Compassion is different from empathy. Empathy is commonly discussed as putting ourselves in someone else’s shoes. It’s feeling what the other person is feeling. While that’s necessary for us to gain insight into the other’s experience, I suggest pursuing the path of compassion, because empathy can, at times, trigger our own pain and suffering. It removes us from being present with the other person.
Often when people have empathy for someone it’s because they care about that person and want to be of support and assistance. Compassion allows us to do that because it is concern and care for that other person. It’s separate from our own internal state.
When we talk about self-compassion, we take that care and concern and shine the light on ourselves. It’s extending kindness to ourselves that we’re so often ready to extend to others, especially for caregivers cultural conditioning. They often shine their light on others around them. What self-compassion asks us to do is to utilize that skill, that strength, towards our suffering and towards our experiences and be there for ourselves just as much as others.
Often people think self-compassion, that’s selfish. In the last few years, studies show that self-compassion is really beneficial for our mental, physical, and emotional health. It’s not a selfish thing. It doesn’t mean that we’re narcissists. It means that we’re able to hold ourselves in loving awareness.
I’ve studied a lot of Kristin Neff’s work. I did the core skills training with her and Chris Germer in 2008 in Madison. She has focused her career on researching self-compassion and there’s real science behind its benefits. It’s a good thing for us. Some of the research talks about how self-compassion is linked to a reduction in negative mind states like anxiety and depression. It’s also linked to an increase in positive mind states like happiness, connectedness and optimism. It helps us to be more effective at coping with adversity, more resilient, protects us against post-traumatic stress disorder and chronic health conditions. It helps us to be more self-motivated and get more done since we don’t beat ourselves up.
I love that research exists because it really helps debunk this myth that self-compassion isn’t useful. We are in a culture where criticism runs the show. We’re hard on ourselves, we judge ourselves, we judge others. We’ve learned through time that that doesn’t work nearly as well as using befriending, care and compassion towards yourself.
Compassion even helps us speed up recovery from disease. Research shows that it can lengthen our lifespan. When we pick our mate the trait that’s most highly valued in our potential romantic partner, studies suggest is kindness. It helps our internal relationship as well as our external, mental and physical. It’s everywhere.
Yesterday, I was having a conversation with some colleagues and we were talking about Cobra, Kai, Johnny and Daniel. It’s one of our favorite topics here. The consensus was we liked Johnny. We liked the bad boy. But who do we choose in our lives? We choose somebody who is kind.
It also got me thinking about Dylan and Brandon and 90210. Didn’t everybody want Dylan. The bad boy, right? My colleague pointed out to me; you married Brandon. It’s true. I married the nicest man in the world. Stay tuned for an episode on 90210.
Let’s talk about how compassion impacts our mental health.
When I talk about self-compassion, I begin by describing the second arrow. The Buddha discusses the second arrow and that as humans we experience pain, experience suffering. That is the first arrow. The second arrow is when we don’t offer ourselves compassion. When we’re critical or judgmental. The second arrow is one that we bring upon ourselves. It goes straight into the first one and it hits that same wound again. Often, we experience something that is traumatic or hard for us and then our thoughts, behaviors, and beliefs keep that wound alive. Self-compassion can stop that, or at least slow it down. When we turn towards ourselves with love and forgiveness, we eliminate the second arrow.
That fits perfectly with the tenants of mindful self-compassion, which is the program that Kristin Neff and Chris Germer have created based on Eastern contemplative practices, mindfulness versus identifying with ourselves. Essentially, one of the core tenants has to do with being aware that we continue to twist that second arrow. As humans, we do that. Another one of the tenants is common humanity versus isolation. This is something that we all experience. All humans suffer. Suffering is inevitable.
Another one of Buddha’s gems, the first noble truth is one of the ways I practice self-compassion. Trusting that I’m human and I’m going to make mistakes. That I’ve had experiences that have shaped how I react and the choices I make. And, along the way, I’ve hurt people as much as I’ve been hurt. Choosing to honor that I’m imperfect. Honoring that I’m human and allowing myself space and forgiveness. I can’t control if other people forgive me, but I can control if I forgive myself. That’s the third tenant of mindful self-compassion, self-kindness versus self-judgment.
We’re all ready to judge ourselves, but if we can offer self-kindness and understanding when we’re suffering, we’re able to change our relationship with suffering.
That’s what this is really all about. It’s not about erasing the pain. It’s about changing our relationship to the pain so that we can be in the same room with it, be able to tolerate it, allow it, maybe eventually befriend it.
There’s a saying “feel it in order to heal it”. Absolutely. Yeah, let’s talk about neurology.
We need some empathy because there is suffering in the world, and we need to honor that other people are suffering in order to serve and help. Often though, I meet people who feel burnt out because they care so much. We want to transition them to compassion because when we experience empathy, research shows that it lights up pain sensors because we truly are feeling what that other person is feeling. When we have compassion, we have mindful separation. Our internal state can remain regulated, and we can offer care and concern for someone else. That lights up pleasure centers in our brain. It’s almost as a misnomer to talk about compassion fatigue, because those of us in the helping professions, we’re really experiencing empathy fatigue. If we feel for someone so deeply, it can freeze us. It can shut us down.
I heard Mare Chapman once give a story like this, which was really helpful for me in thinking about empathy versus compassion.
If you’re on a hike with your BFF and they trip and fall and they break their leg and you’re like two miles from your car, the empathetic response would be, “I should feel what you’re feeling. I will break my leg too.” If you have compassion, you can see their suffering and ask, “What can I do to help?” I can carry you or make some sort of stick cast. I can’t do any of that if I’m literally in pain. If I break my own leg, how helpful am I right to that person?
Compassion allows us to stay grounded in ourselves yet take action to support that person. We don’t get lost in the pain.
We can see how that’s analogous with self-compassion. We have to be really kind to ourselves when we’re suffering. It’s the human condition to really identify with that pain and attach to it, but if we can show ourselves kindness when we’re in pain, we will move through it or change our relationship to it.
We will also have a lot more awareness of what’s happening. That’s where mindful self-compassion is really powerful. It gives us tools to work with really difficult emotions. What mindful self-compassion would tell us to do is to identify and label those emotions. We do that through being aware of our own experience. The key is to become aware of them in the body. Identify where we find these emotions in the body because only then can we start to soften in our physiology, sooth ourselves, and then just allow that pain to dissipate.
There’s been research on where emotions are felt in our bodies. When you feel a swell of love for someone, where do you feel that? Where do you feel shame? Whenever I feel shame or embarrassment, my face flushes right away. The research is showing that that is common. It was a 2014 study. We can put a link in the show notes.
They did heat maps of their body to see where emotions were felt. As you can expect anger is a hot red head, throat, chest. With love, we can really see a warmth across the heart region. Then, shame just like you described is bright red cheeks.
It’s so fascinating. If it’s in the body, we can work on healing. We can have an awareness of what’s happening in our bodies and then start to offer compassion, soothing and openness. When it’s in the body, we can work with that. It isn’t just something that we can talk our way out of.
I go back to another research study, where they looked at a compassionate lifestyle. Someone who chooses to offer compassion towards themselves and others, has a lens of forgiveness and understanding. It proves to be a really wonderful buffer for stress. Using compassion predicts a longer life, and when we die, there’s less disease, less inflammation, less suffering than those who don’t live a compassionate lifestyle. Research shows that when people live a compassionate lifestyle and treat themselves kindly, rather than critically, they are more likely to believe that they can improve, that they can correct mistakes so that they can re-engage with their goals. It really helps us fight against self-judgment, the procrastination that follows, stress, rumination, all the things that stop us in our tracks and stop us from growing.
We tend to think that we need to motivate ourselves with punishment. If being hard on ourselves was going to work, it would have by now. Most of us have a few decades of that experience under our belts. So why don’t we try something different? Why don’t we try being kind to ourselves? It doesn’t mean that we’re going to just let everything go. In fact, research shows that it actually motivates us more.
I talk a lot with clients who are trying to make lifestyle changes or movement changes, or who have a defined goal they’ve tried to reach multiple different times in their life. With that follows perhaps shame or self-judgment or criticism. I acknowledge that we live in a culture that thinks criticism is how we achieve a goal.
If we think about it, you’re going back to the neurological response to criticism. It’s a threat, right? When we experience a threat, we go into a threat response. We freeze or we flee, or we shut down. Compassion is the antidote to those responses. When we’re compassionate towards each other, we can bring ourselves into that ventral vagal place of safety, regulation, feeling calm, feeling kind. That does create more space that helps the growth mindset.
Our ancestors had a really highly developed stress response system. That’s why we’re here today, because they understood fear, ran away from threats and lived to tell the tale.
We’re still in that cycle of stress response. That sets off this cascade of negative things in our bodies where we’re flooded with stress hormones which lead to disease and it’s because we’ve got that critical, fearful voice.
What’s the harm of starting to rewire it, even just with a little kindness toward ourselves? There’s a lot of good that can come from that. Our nature is to experience suffering. Yet, we can honor that and then be gentle with it.
We’re built to do this. It’s a survival response because not only does it help our physical and mental health, but it also helps everybody. Compassion is contagious. When you see those people who pay for the coffee for the car behind them and it lasts an hour and a half.
We need to practice random acts of kindness for ourselves too. This is not a selfish thing. It doesn’t mean that we treat ourselves to something that might be detrimental. It means that we greet ourselves as we would a friend. Maybe that’s a 10-minute meditation break, getting on the yoga mat, having a dance party in the kitchen.
Compassion is about meeting ourselves where we’re at. Allowing ourselves to set down, as Brene Brown talks about, that shield of perfectionism. I’ll just put my hand on my heart or on my arm, soothing rubbing my arm. Compassionate touch. After hearing Mary Chapman explain this, I’ve started practicing saying out loud to myself, I’m sorry this is so hard for you. Just my ears hearing I’m sorry releases oxytocin and dopamine. Not excusing, not trying to make sense of it, just honoring.
One that I often do with my clients is an affectionate breathing meditation. Allowing our breath to rock us, to soothe us, can be very powerful.
I also really enjoy tapping. We haven’t talked too much about tapping, the emotional freedom technique. Stay tuned for more on that.
When I was working with Annie Forest who was on our podcast a few weeks ago, she created for me a parasympathetic workout to calm my system and be present for myself.
Things like red light therapy, that warmth and feeling the slowing down of my nervous system.
I was also doing coat sleeves. Imagine you’re a kindergartner and you took your arms inside your winter coat. And then you flap your sleeves back into the coat. While you’re waiting in line, that can be really regulating. That creates space for being present with those emotions and offering compassion.
I like to pair that to that body work with mindfulness work. That’s the key. We have a group here at Insight on self-compassion using yoga and mindfulness tools. It’s so powerful.
These tools are so accessible to anyone. They can be practiced on the floor, in bed, anywhere really. They can help us shift our physiology and our nervous system toward more kindness toward ourselves.
We all have that inner critic, that self-judgment, that voice that we get to really identify. And we have the ability then to flip the script to really change that to a more compassionate voice, a compassionate witness to our experience. That’s what we’re looking for. We can do that ourselves. It’s so empowering. When we can hold ourselves in kindness, we can really start to see shifts.
I read a quote from Tara Brock, the meditation teacher and psychologist. She described that palliative care givers often say that the greatest regret expressed by the dying is that they didn’t live true to themselves. She believes to live true we need to awaken this self-compassion and love ourselves into healing.
We have more resources on our website if listeners are interested in cultivating self-compassion and exploring what that means for them. Go to www.insightmadison.com/podcast.
I’m feeling lots of kindness for all beings, including myself.
Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast.
Today, we’re excited to talk with you about the Polyvagal Theory. It’s probably our favorite thing. It has really changed my perception of other people’s behavior as well as my own.
It’s the foundation of the trauma work that I do. Bringing awareness, not just emotionally or from our thoughts, but from the nervous system, the body and the brain. Noticing when our system’s dysregulated versus what happens when we’re feeling safe and calm.
This is a very special episode. We are framing it through the lens of the Karate Kid and Cobra Kai.
We’re going to give you a brief explanation of Polyvagal Theory. Then, we’re going to fan girl all over Cobra Kai, and explore these relationships and the perspectives and wisdom that this show can offer.
We’ll probably touch on a bit of childhood trauma as well, because there’s really no way to look at the Karate Kid and Cobra Kai without considering intergenerational trauma and adverse childhood experiences.
All right, let’s go.
How would you explain the theory of the Vagus Nerve?
I usually start with the concept of survival. We are wired for survival and are a complex network of systems. Those systems need to be in balance, homeostasis. The sense of safety is very crucial to that balance.
We used to just think about the balance between our parasympathetic nervous system and our sympathetic nervous system. If we’re looking at the big umbrella, we’re looking at our brainstem and spinal cord, central nervous system, autonomic nervous system as a part of that. It’s the automatic part of us that keeps us alive, that keeps, that helps us survive. Where we’re going out to get food, running and fighting and all that stuff that, but also needing to chill out, to rest, to be immobile, to sleep, to procreate, to digest her food. Those two systems can click on and off with some fluidity and then we find homeostasis.
Once in a while we get out of balance, but then we can come back into balance.
That’s our traditional view of our nervous system, but there’s more. In the eighties and nineties, Stephen Porges, discovered a different framework to look at all of this that has to do with our Vagus Nerve.
The Vagus Nerve is the 10th cranial nerve. The cranium, the base of the skull, is a big nerve. More than just a nerve, it’s nerve bundles. It’s the network. It’s the highway from the brain to the body.
These different pathways go to all the different organs in our bodies. They communicate to our muscles to move, to mobilize blood flow, our breath, our heart rate, our digestive system. All of these things that keep us going are connected to this autonomic nervous system.
There’s one pathway that moves down from the brain to the body. There are four from the body communicating up to the brain.
That means, listening to the wisdom of the body and bringing the body into our health and healing, allows us to get to our root causes a lot more quickly than if we are just using the brain to solve problems.
The Vagus Nerve goes all the way down through our torso. The oldest of its pathways is below the diaphragm. The diaphragm is our biggest muscle of breath, where our lungs end, and our stomach begins. The diaphragm is the bridge between those areas. This is where our immobilization response lives. Our freeze response. Below and above the diaphragm we have all these sympathetic fibers. Those parts of the Vagus Nerve innervate our limbs and mobilize us for action.
There’s even a newer Vagus Nerve pathway, more than fight or flight and rest and digest, that’s actually myelinated. This is where Stephen Porges blew the lid off this whole balance theory. The nerve that is associated with this, he calls the ventral vagal.
It’s the response of connection. A more sophisticated nerve that enervates and connects our face or throat and our heart. A kind of tend and befriend response. We have shutdown, immobilization, mobilization or the sympathetic fight or flight, and now we’re looking at connection.
Essentially, we go through these responses every day. What you’re talking about is the autonomic hierarchy. When someone feels safe and connected, they feel like they can move through things with ease.
If you have a threat that feels dangerous, you mobilize. The first thing a mammal will do is flee. Then it will try to fight. Somewhere in there, it could try to fawn or have an attachment cry response. These are all strategies of mobilization. If those strategies don’t work, which is decided in milliseconds, we travel even further down to the most ancient response, freeze and shut down.
We move up and down this autonomic hierarchy depending on the threat. The way that our nervous system decides what to do is a concept called neuroception.
Neuroception is our nervous system and brain continually gathering information from our internal experience (heart rate, breath, digestion, muscle tension) then from external sources, (our environment, things happening around us) and lastly from other nervous systems around us. So, if you walk up to someone and they’re feeling panicky, you may start to feel that panic as well, or if they’re feeling shut down you may notice your body starts to feel shut down as well. We’re constantly reading each other through neuroception.
The last concept, co-regulation. Co-regulation is when we move into that ventral vagal nerve, that social engagement system, that sense of safety, through each other and through connection. If we’re feeling overwhelmed, we can find someone who is regulated and naturally our nervous system begins to feel safe. Co-regulation starts when we’re in our mother’s wombs, reading their nervous system.
Your clients are co-regulating in therapy. This is some really dense stuff we’re covering. A lot of scientific neurobiology. The bottom line is that if you are a loving, safe presence for people, you’re creating a healing space. If somebody comes to you and you meet them, in their anxiety or in their sense of shutdown, you’re not going to be able to go anywhere. You have to be completely grounded. That means being able to regulate yourself and conveying to them with really subtle signals that you are a safe person to attach to.
When I frame polyvagal theory with clients, I often frame it as it’s not that we’re supposed to avoid feeling that sympathetic energy. That’s not the point. It really is to spend more time in ventral vagal.
Also, this idea of practicing the skill of autonomic resiliency so when we do feel a threat, we’re more easily able to get ourselves back to ventral vagal. It takes awareness. We don’t always know how the system retunes itself. Sometimes it happens over time and with care and attention. There’s no magic prescription for this either.
That takes us into Cobra Kai.
The Karate Kid, starring Ralph Macchio and Pat Morita, hit theaters in June of 1984. I was four years old. This is the one movie I remember seeing in a theater where I couldn’t sit with my family because it was so crowded. It was one of the most immersive experiences.
It was very much good versus evil in a really simplistic way. This person’s good. This person’s evil. That’s what really stuck with me until recently.
Daniel LaRusso and his mom moved to a new town across the country. He’s from Jersey. He moves to California and he’s having trouble fitting into the culture at his new school. He’s picked on, he’s bullied, basically for just being new and different.
Mr. Miyagi is the apartment maintenance manager of Daniel’s apartment building.
Unbeknownst to Daniel, he flirts with Johnny Lawrence’s ex-girlfriend, Ali. Johnny’s the leader of this unforgiving brutal Cobra Kai karate dojo led by John Kreese.
Daniel gets into some fights and doesn’t do very well. At one point, Mr. Miyagi shows up on the scene and he steps in and basically whoops everybody’s butt to protect Daniel.
Daniel becomes super interested in Mr. Miyagi. They bond and become very close. There’s lots of montages of them training. They get pressured to join the All-Valley tournament and Daniel gets to show off his new skills.
It’s very intense. Daniel wins.
Then, in subsequent movies around the same plot line, there’s lots of Mr. Miyagi wisdom, lots of martial arts.
Moving forward, Cobra Kai.
It’s been 34 years since the All-Valley tournament. Daniel beat Johnny in the final and it was humiliating. Mr. Miyagi’s mindful self-defense overcame Sensei Kreese’s strike first, strike hard, no mercy philosophy.
Mr. Miyagi and Daniel defeated this force of evil, these irredeemable characters of Johnny and Sensei Kreese. Johnny actually comes up to Daniel afterwards and tells them you’re all right, LaRusso. Something changes where he gets it. He has a sense of connection with Daniel. He feels safe enough to congratulate him. Then he goes outside and Kreese yells at him and I’m sure that sense of safety completely dissipates and shifts and back into a protection mode of fight.
34 years later, Cobra Kai picks up the story from Johnny’s perspective.
Now we fast forward and Johnny is fired from his job, estranged from his son and crushing Coors banquets constantly. Dude has some wicked addiction issues happening.
Juxtapose that with Daniel LaRusso. He is a successful car salesman, owns a bunch of car dealerships. He’s married with kids. Financially well off. He’s got billboards around town that say, kick the competition.
It tells the story of what that feels like for Johnny. He’s very angry. He’s very much stuck in that fight response and some immobilization mobilization. He has a lot of pain that he’s turning away from him. He’s turning towards alcohol. He’s turning away from connection.
Through three seasons, we see where that pain comes from for Johnny. We see his childhood where as much as he wanted and tried by making bids for love and connection to a stepfather, he was repeatedly turned away, mocked, made fun of. His only source of regulation and safety is his mom and his mother passes away right before his son is born.
Johnny’s uses the coping strategies that he knows, which are addiction and withdrawal protection. His son is being born and he can’t even get himself to go across the street and see his son because he’s in such a place of shutdown due to his mother’s death. From that moment, his story of shame around not being there for his son, influences the whole trajectory with Robby and how he relates to Robby and how Robby feels. That intergenerational pattern.
Robby’s story of protection, from not feeling safe to feeling safe and regulated with Daniel and then again, later in the series, Robby, again, feels that he cannot connect, he’s not safe, he doesn’t belong, and he goes back to protecting himself.
This is a story of constantly shifting allegiances. Everybody changes teams constantly. When you think about it that makes a lot of sense. I go where I find safety. It might not be a good connection, but when we have childhood trauma, any attachment feels safe, even if it’s not a healthy attachment.
Let’s think about Johnny’s childhood. He had an overbearing stepdad. It looked like he was the privileged one because he lived in the Hills. He was abused. He wasn’t seen. He found connection with other kids who also had the same experience. Then they find an attachment figure, Sensei Kreese, who was ruthless. He was just normal.
I think a great way to summarize him is he really believed protection and anger meant strength. These kids are already wired for this because of the adversity, because of the trauma. On the other hand, Daniel and Mr. Miyagi, are more about connecting, being aware of their own experience and then responding rather than reacting.
As we were talking about before, with neuroception, our nervous system and sense of safety can be shifted by our senses.
Here’s an exercise. Take a moment to create a blank slate, maybe close your eyes, or soften your gaze and check in with how your system feels right now.
I’m going to play a clip as to what it feels like to train with Johnny. Pay close attention to how your nervous system feels, how your muscles respond, how your breath and heart rate respond. Imagine yourself a part of the Cobra Kai dojo.
Here we go.
What’s your response to that?
I jumped and felt full body alert. I’m mobilized. It didn’t feel very safe.
Total fear response. Even when he does it during the show, I freeze and feel muscle tension. My heart feels like it jumps. I stop breathing and move into freeze mode. I was ready to defend.
We’re not thinking, it happens automatically. You mobilize. I freeze.
His brain is not developed yet, so he’s all respond, all reaction.
Then, let’s get a little bit of what it’s like to train with Daniel.
What’s your response to that?
I’m so soothed. He’s using the prosody of voice that really appeals to our Ventral Vagus. He is connecting. He’s creating a sense of safety. I don’t feel like fighting. I’m more connected to my body. I’m more aware of my thoughts. I’m able to hear what he’s saying and integrate it.
Those are two very different styles and two very different responses.
Remember, this is a show about attempting to train teenagers in self-defense, which is a wonderful thing. Martial arts is a discipline. It is very much about tolerating distress. It’s about mobilizing when necessary and being able to discern right from wrong, good from evil.
When we look at all of the nervous systems that are going into this, that’s what makes it such a great show. It is nostalgic, but what does that mean? That nostalgia that means with pain, right?
We’re almost painfully reliving those experiences because I think we can all relate. We can all relate to being an impressionable teen. Who are those influences for us? Was it more of a Sensei Kreese or was it a Mr. Miyagi?
Cobra Kai frequently echoes the words of Mr. Miyagi.
The key thing. Whole life has balance. Everything will be better.
Daniel translates that to be the bonsai tree. You are the tree Robby. You’ve got strong roots. You know who you are, so now all you have to do is visualize what you want your future to look like and make that happen.
The idea of balance and homeostasis is a key theme throughout this show. How we find that through connection or when we don’t often because the characters are protecting themselves because of what they’ve been through.
When we see Sensei Kreese’s backstory, it all starts to make sense. We look at the generations that came before and what injuries were inflicted to create the people that we see today. Yet when we experience Kreese we wonder, how can this person be so cruel? How can there be such little empathy? Through flashbacks, you see how kind and caring he was when he was younger. We see how the loss he experienced and trauma from war shaped his nervous system and created a sense of fight, a sense of attack. That’s the way that he figures out how to navigate the world so that he can stay safe, so he can survive. He learned to strike first, to strike hard, and to show no mercy. It was all about survival.
Cobra Kai shows us there really is no good or bad. We’re all human.
It highlights some of Daniel’s survival strategies. Growing up without a father figure, without financial resources, we see in Cobra Kai how he figures out how to be in the world without one of his attachment figures. Daniel’s responses, as an adult, are in a mobilization state. A lot of the time he is trying to provide. He’s very focused on results. He easily shifts to fight. Mr. Miyagi said just breathe, yet Daniel is not breathing. He’s jumping to conclusions very quickly. Name-calling or shaming Johnny. He’s so focused on his work that he doesn’t really have the relationships he assumes he has with his children. There is a form of disconnection there. I see him strategizing to make sure he is safe.
The transformation we watch is him return to karate. Return to the martial arts, return to his breath and to his body. He finds his own form of ventral vagal that he was not in before. He needs Johnny for that. That’s a hard thing for him to come to grips with, but he wouldn’t have grown so much if it weren’t for the influence of Johnny Lawrence who he thinks is just a thorn in his side. They help each other grow. It is almost post-traumatic growth. Very restorative to their systems.
In their kiddos, right? Robby has his own story protection, connection protection, shifting up and down that autonomic hierarchy from safety to flight to fight, to shut down, to fight again. Daniel’s daughter, Sam, even the altercation she has with the other dojo creates some post-traumatic stress responses and she is in a freeze state often. I think they did a great job showing what can happen in real time for someone, especially when their brain is not fully formed. It’s very honest in a lot of ways that she didn’t even know how to articulate it or share it with people because you really don’t sometimes when your system is offline.
Miguel, one of the leads of the show, is in some ways in ventral vagal. When we meet him, he’s in a place where he feels connected to his mom. He is suffering, he’s getting beat up, he’s getting bullied, but he has a friend group. He has a safe home with his mom and grandma. Then he initiated the relationship with Johnny, and they co-regulate together. Through that journey with Johnny, they heal.
Miguel has a transformation but the neuroception goes the other way for him. He shifts from ventral vagal to a place of fight because Johnny is so important to him. Sometimes we find that sense of safety in a place that isn’t the best for us. It’s an attachment and Miguel doesn’t have a father figure in his life, so he looks to Johnny for it. Johnny is inconsistent. I think that Miguel sought out Johnny because he needed connection. He needed somebody who could teach him about how to keep himself safe because he was getting beat up. It’s a weird place for Johnny because he has low self-esteem and doesn’t want to deal with this kid because he can’t even parent his own son.
It is a wonderful relationship to watch develop. They have a bond that transcends a lot of Johnny’s trauma. It really helps him heal as well.
We see a lot of bully victim dynamics that are also fascinating. From a neurophysiological lens, these kids who’ve been marginalized now find a voice. They don’t always act on it in a way that is restorative, but they’re kids. They find co-regulation through belonging. Belonging is survival. We are wired to be part of a group. If our ancestors were shunned from the group, it was certain death and we still have nervous systems that want us to be a part of a group.
Lots of good conversations that can happen through plot lines. They did a great job. It’s almost a guilty pleasure. When I watch it, I’m thinking about polyvagal theory and trauma and childhood experiences and how we’re shaped and attachment theory.
If I had all the time in the world, I would create a Genogram. It’s a marriage and family therapy technique where we chart intergenerational patterns through families. Cobra Kai really needs a Genogram because you can chart family systems, connection, protection, fight responses, trauma responses, intergenerational patterns.
Art imitates life. We need artists. This also underscores the importance of really deep thinkers. People who can convey these really complicated messages in an entertaining way. What a gift. Thank you to the writers of Cobra Kai. And these are classic archetypes, right? We’re just using this one show as an example.
This has so much to do with the work that we do as mental health professionals. It helps us to really look at somebody’s story, what influences they’ve experienced, and how their nervous system is tuned. What kind of connections have they had? Do they have any awareness of what’s happening in their body? It’s a nice lens to help explain some of these bigger concepts of polyvagal theory and body-centered psychotherapy.
All right. Polyvagal theory through the lens of Cobra Kai. We did it. My favorite episode yet.
Thank you everyone for listening. If you have any questions about polyvagal theory and Cobra Kai, shoot us an email, or if we missed anything we’d love to hear from you. Otherwise, we’ll see you next week.
